2010+ Mazdaspeed 3, I recommend to monitor your fuel pumps closely

[Teethkikr]

I emailed COBB about the WGDC being lowered with a test pipe and Travis told me that the TP would NOT lower the %...

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Teethkikr I emailed COBB about the WGDC being lowered with a test pipe and Travis told me that the TP would NOT lower the %...

It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong and can't pretend I know anything that Cobb doesn't. That is for sure.

Let me find where I saw this referance, and I'll edit this post with it.

[Teethkikr]

Looks like we are both right lol..

"Is it safe to assume that running a test pipe can also lower my wastegate duty %?"

"The test pipe itself would not lower WGDC, that is determined by the calibration. However, running a testpipe would make you a stage2 vehicle more or less so you would want to run the appropriate stage2 calibration."

--Looks like the TP itself wont lower WDDC but with the stage 2 tune, they should lower.

[rfinkle2]

No, you were right... I was wrong.

I am only interested in getting the right info, and can admit to being wrong. Good stuff.

Did you get a chance to ask him if WGDC being @ 100% was of concern?

[Amazon]

Each page in this thread reminds me of Groundhog Day

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Amazon Each page in this thread reminds me of Groundhog Day

Considering you are recieving help w/ atr etc. from some of the more experienced members on the forum, I would think it might.

Don't take that the wrong way, I'd like if more experienced atr users chimed in (helped us), but this is where they (gen1 and ms6 guys) started too.

[Amazon]

I receive very little support, and when I do, its limited. I learn by testing out minor changes to the tune to see how the car reacts. Gotta take risks
Help is out there for those who would like to do more than discuss fuel pumps like they would an intake thread. Dano has an excellent thread on tuning in the ATR section.

[Speed3eak]

lol @ amazon (groundhog day comment)

The boost dynamics table alters wgdc, but only if wgdc isn't following your boost targets table really closely. From what I've seen, it only has a noticeable effect if you're more than ~1 psi off target - but that's probably because 1.5 psi error causes throttle and fuel cut as well. Adding in a test pipe would cause you to hit more boost @ the same wgdc, which would cause a "spike" to appear on your power curve right where the table kicks in and lowers wgdc to keep boost in line with the targets table. Unless it doesn't affect boost strongly enough to cause the wgdc table to kick in.

I've also noticed that wgdc is maxed out longer in hot weather than in cold weather - which makes me think that the boost dynamics table corrects error for under-boosting more quickly and strongly than over-boosting error.

IMO, if you're going to run develop something besides an OTS map, you should read this thread: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...l-stuff-68239/

edit: I would like to hear from some of the more experienced members, but amazon is right about the testing thing - making small changes to see what everything does is part of the process. Also guys, don't be afraid to get on the cobb ATR forums - I posted a thread up there and they responded quickly with some great advice, so that's also a great resource for those who want to learn about tuning IMO.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Did you get a chance to ask him if WGDC being @ 100% was of concern?

WGDC @ 100% means your tiny ass snail is working its ass off and not doing much more than blowing hot air and struggling to keep up with your motor.

I think that's bad...

[Amazon]

100% means turdbo no wanna work anymo'

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 WGDC @ 100% means your tiny ass snail is working its ass off and not doing much more than blowing hot air and struggling to keep up with your motor. I think that's bad...

Good to see you visit @jwilkins88. As far as the wgdc goes, Christian mentions that up to a 95% duty cycle be seen.

Is the bcs the hardware in danger?

from the ATR helpfile (italics):

We do not suggest you run a wastegate duty cycle of more than
95% to prevent overheating or lock-up of the wastegate solenoid, and to promote the longevity of the
wastegate solenoid. Modifying these tables can greatly effect how the vehicle drives at part throttle and
transitions from part throttle to WOT.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Is the bcs the hardware in danger?

I'd be more worried about the turbo that the solenoid. Solenoids are cheap... Turbos aren't

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 I'd be more worried about the turbo that the solenoid. Solenoids are cheap... Turbos aren't

I know that you are an advocate of a bigger turbo for good reason.

There is a point however, where the k04 is comfortable, and I feel Cobb has designed the OTS maps to be operated in this range.

Could you elaborated on your strategy to alleviate the 100% WGDC , over worked turbo.

More specifically, your personal tuning strategy to remedy this in ATR?

[Amazon]

lol

Try backing off the boost?

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I know that you are an advocate of a bigger turbo for good reason. There is a point however, where the k04 is comfortable, and I feel Cobb has designed the OTS maps to operated in this range. Could you elaborated on your strategy to alleviate the 100% WGDC , over worked turbo. More specifically, your personal tuning strategy to remedy this in ATR?

It's really simple, honestly...

100% wgdc means that your turbo is working as hard as it can and it still can't meet your target boost.

Lower the boost in the RPM range where it's 100% until it drops.

I did this for a local, and he's seeing the same boost with less WGDC now.

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 I'd be more worried about the turbo that the solenoid. Solenoids are cheap... Turbos aren't

Well used k04's can be found around here pretty cheaply. And I think you can get them rebuilt unless the hotside is cracked or something.

But.... It is the perfect excuse to go big turbo. Borg warner EFR anyone? If you don't have the funds to go big turbo, well you can find a used k04 for cheap and have it rebuilt. Or stock out and try and get it replaced under warranty.

[rfinkle2]

With all due respect, that is exactly as we thought... thanks for the reply.

[Amazon]

lol

Didn't you used to have a "built Evo X" finkle?

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 It's really simple, honestly... 100% wgdc means that your turbo is working as hard as it can and it still can't meet your target boost. Lower the boost in the RPM range where it's 100% until it drops. I did this for a local, and he's seeing the same boost with less WGDC now.

This is exactly what rfinkle2 recommended to me. In my situation, I'm actually exceeding my boost targets, but the same strategy applies I believe.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Amazon lol Didn't you used to have a "built Evo X" finkle?

My EvoX was not "built" and never said it was.

My EvoX was mildly modded and tuned by someone with far greater knowledge than I with open source software HE helped develop.

Why are you trying to insult my intelligence?

BTW, I had an evoIX and an AudiTT225 also, all of which had their quirks.

[Amazon]

Was it making 300 whp from 3000 - red line after the tune?

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by indianaryan This is exactly what rfinkle2 recommended to me. In my situation, I'm actually exceeding my boost targets, but the same strategy applies I believe.

If you're exceeding your boost targets, and your wgdc is 100%, you have some other issues. The ECU should be able to prevent overboosting with no problems.

I'd say that you either have an issue with your wastegate or your solenoid. I know the stock solenoid is a piece of dog shit, so you might consider replacing that.

Edit: But yeah... You could probably mitigate the overboosting issue by lowering your boost, but it wouldn't fix the root cause

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Amazon Was it making 300 whp from 3000 - red line after the tune?

YES, actaully from 3,000 rpm, it dropped off a bit...

I have the AWD mustang dyno sheet I'd be happy to post.

Why are you trying to start an argument Amazon? Don't you get enough attention?

[Amazon]

Cool, you should do the same tune on your mazda yo!

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 If you're exceeding your boost targets, and your wgdc is 100%, you have some other issues. The ECU should be able to prevent overboosting with no problems. I'd say that you either have an issue with your wastegate or your solenoid. I know the stock solenoid is a piece of dog shit, so you might consider replacing that. Edit: But yeah... You could probably mitigate the overboosting issue by lowering your boost, but it wouldn't fix the root cause

Or decrease the WGDC %?

Taken from the ATR Help File:

If you are having a small boost spike you may need to decrease the WGDC percentage a few hundred
RPM prior to the over boosting event to allow the exhaust energy to be released past the turbine wheel.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Amazon Cool, you should do the same tune on your mazda yo!

The reason I created this thread was because I've been trying to find out the do's and don'ts of this platform.

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...e-boost-74519/

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Or decrease the WGDC %? Taken from the ATR Help File: If you are having a small boost spike you may need to decrease the WGDC percentage a few hundred RPM prior to the over boosting event to allow the exhaust energy to be released past the turbine wheel.

It sounds like you're having a different problem though. It can't hurt to give it a shot, but I don't think that's your problem. I could be way off though

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 It sounds like you're having a different problem though. It can't hurt to give it a shot, but I don't think that's your problem. I could be way off though

Well, it doesn't hurt to give it a shot. I'll adjust the map a bit and report back. Thanks for the help.

EDIT: If you're interested, I posted my logs back on post #309. I'm not really seeing a boost spike or anything, and I'm not consistantly overshooting the boost target of 17.5 psi by as much as 1.5 psi or more. So I think some small adjustments can be made to the Boost Target values so that the WGDC isn't maxing out at 100%

[rfinkle2]

Below are two good Gen1 threads concerning a maxed wgdc...

Is 100% WGDC a problem?

Lowering WGDC

Keep in mind that some of the discussion is before ATR was "boost dynamics enabled"

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Well, it doesn't hurt to give it a shot. I'll adjust the map a bit and report back. Thanks for the help. EDIT: If you're interested, I posted my logs back on post #309. I'm not really seeing a boost spike or anything, and I'm not consistantly overshooting the boost target of 17.5 psi by as much as 1.5 psi or more. So I think some small adjustments can be made to the Boost Target values so that the WGDC isn't maxing out at 100%

Right... The less boost you target, the lower your WGDC will be. The problem here is that you shouldn't ever overshoot your target boost. That's indicative of a hardware problem most the time (tune would be the secondary cause)

And "small changes" are relative. For one of the locals here, I had to drop his targets by more than 3psi

[rfinkle2]

It is my understanding that there is a possibility of "overshooting" the boost targets, and the "boost dynamics table" is used to adjust these overshots, giving the wastegate authority to reduce boost if necessary (and if undershooting targets, increase boost if necessary).

I'm in no way disputing @jwilkins88 and am happy to have him contribute to the gen2 threads.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 It is my understanding that there is a possibility of "overshooting" the boost targets, and the "boost dynamics table" is used to adjust these overshots, giving the wastegate authority to reduce boost if necessary (and if undershooting targets, increase boost if necessary). I'm in no way disputing @jwilkins88 and am happy to have him contribute to the gen2 threads.

Sure... It's possible, but it usually happens because your wastegate and/or solenoid aren't responding quickly enough.

I'd be interested to see if the same problems occur with a three port solenoid (such as the one offered by grimmspeed)

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Joel, we can find out after I dyno tomorrow.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 Sure... It's possible, but it usually happens because your wastegate and/or solenoid aren't responding quickly enough. I'd be interested to see if the same problems occur with a three port solenoid (such as the one offered by grimmspeed)

I know you likely read the threads on the grimmspeed (Dano's boost tuning) etc. ,but I think there are guys running considerably less wgdc with the 3 port in interrupt mode. (relative to what they were forced to run with the stock bcs)

the grimmspeed 3 port boost solenoid (EBC)

[wolly6973]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 When you open the ATR helpfile, on pg. 69,70, 71 you'll see the table for boost targets when you load the map. Lower the boost by a bit, log and see what happens to your wgdc. Think of it this way, you are moving towards safety when lowering the boost targets. @wolly6973 - @ what increments did you begin to change your boost targets in ATR... Keep in mind guys, that Dano's WGDC are going to look a bit wacky due to his tunning a Grimmspeed 3 port boost control solenoid.

I didn't use Dano's WGDC values, I just upped them across the board evenly, trying to keep it about 5-10% under what I was actually seeing in the logs.
My theory was to have it close to what I was actually seeing, so no matter what RPM I go WOT, my WGDC will know an approximate place to be, instead of waiting for Boost Dynamics to figure it out.

For boost targets, I just did a 1 psi increase. It is cold again now, and I am dropping fp with that. My fp will be going in tomorrow though, so that issue should be fine!

[Teethkikr]

So let me get this straight.. Joel says that there is another problem other than the tune that would cause the car to overboost.. I have not seen my car overboost by more than the 1.5 psi COBB says it should but am seeing the 100%WGDC.. I cant imagine that I have a harware issue that is causing this.. And if there is, what is it?? At 16k miles?? I believe is strictly related to the tune and having the boost turned up. This goes back to my original question... If I have a map that is loaded to my specs and 100% is said to be a bad thing, why would COBB tune it to run at that kind of load?? Everything that I can find to read tells me that they arent concerned about it... I know that when a DP and exhaust are done and we jump to stage 2, WGDC goes down.. With that said, why is the boost so high for stage 1 if what we are seeing is bad?

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by Teethkikr So let me get this straight.. Joel says that there is another problem other than the tune that would cause the car to overboost.. I have not seen my car overboost by more than the 1.5 psi COBB says it should but am seeing the 100%WGDC.. I cant imagine that I have a harware issue that is causing this.. And if there is, what is it?? At 16k miles?? I believe is strictly related to the tune and having the boost turned up. This goes back to my original question... If I have a map that is loaded to my specs and 100% is said to be a bad thing, why would COBB tune it to run at that kind of load?? Everything that I can find to read tells me that they arent concerned about it... I know that when a DP and exhaust are done and we jump to stage 2, WGDC goes down.. With that said, why is the boost so high for stage 1 if what we are seeing is bad?

tbh, I don't know how much the boost dynamics table actually intervenes until boost starts to get 1psi + out of line. I hit 18.5 psi, even after I changed my boost targets table to 17.55 in at WOT - I had forgotten to adjust my wgdc up until my latest revision, and the fact that my boost dynamics table didn't limit boost (or even make it taper off more quickly). The only time I saw boost dynamics interfere was when I set my wgdc to 20% at 2500 and 3000 rpm, and it seemed as though it prevented the car from adding more dc as opposed to removing it from an overboost situation. Just my impressions though.

I've heard in dano's boost thread that logged wgdc = 2x requested dc + 10, and that makes sense with the differences between my logs and my targets. In places where I'm requesting >50%, my logged dc seems to be 100.

You guys realize the cobb maps for us are v100 right now - these are the earliest maps and there will be changes made for v101, v102, etc. Hell, gen 1 guys have v108 maps so we are far from seeing the finalized OTS maps. 100 wgdc is working the turbo hard, but boost targets, wgdc, and timing maps will change as cobb refines the maps for our cars.

The only time I see wgdc of 100 is when I'm doing a WOT datalog - I don't drive aggressively enough to see it in other situations, so my guess is cobb felt these targets were acceptable for the time being. I honestly don't know though.

[wolly6973]

Originally Posted by Teethkikr So let me get this straight.. Joel says that there is another problem other than the tune that would cause the car to overboost.. I have not seen my car overboost by more than the 1.5 psi COBB says it should but am seeing the 100%WGDC.. I cant imagine that I have a harware issue that is causing this.. And if there is, what is it?? At 16k miles?? I believe is strictly related to the tune and having the boost turned up. This goes back to my original question... If I have a map that is loaded to my specs and 100% is said to be a bad thing, why would COBB tune it to run at that kind of load?? Everything that I can find to read tells me that they arent concerned about it... I know that when a DP and exhaust are done and we jump to stage 2, WGDC goes down.. With that said, why is the boost so high for stage 1 if what we are seeing is bad?

Have you checked for leaks? Just because you haven't messed with the hardware, doesn't mean it was hooked up correctly from the factory.
Check to make sure all your boost tubes, TIP, vacuum, and other intake are all connected securely.

[jwilkins88]

Also, you're overlooking the fact that the stock solenoid sucks and isn't that great at controlling boost. I honestly think that's one of the biggest issues.

[indianaryan]

I decreased my boost targets (from 4k rpm, bottom 6 cells, through 7k rpm) by 1 psi. I'm still overshooting my targets by about 1.5 psi. I'll try a little more tomorrow. It looks like it helped lower WGDC in 3rd, but 2nd is still maxing out and FP is dropping as you can see in the 2nd of the two 2nd gear pulls.