2010+ Mazdaspeed 3, I recommend to monitor your fuel pumps closely

[wolly6973]

You are not seeing boost spikes.
A boost spike is where the boost all of a sudden jumps up very fast, and then goes back down.
You are just steadily increasing boost to meet the requested boost.

From what I have read, those miniscule amounts of KR should not be an issue.

You may also want to consider adding Boost Air Temp (BAT) to your list, it is pretty useful to see how well your intercooler is keeping up.

[bertrand_CX_7]

Merged messages...

[dizzydtrain]

Ok, so here is what has occurred so far.

I installed the cp-e pump last week and just recently began data logging via Cobb AP to see how everything was running--My current mods are cp-e sri, tmic, and cp-e hpfp. So I began datalogging and posted some of my logs in order to find out that I have a fuel pressure drop to the 1400's during my wot log. The fuel pressure holds around 1650 and then dips down to mid-to low 1400's between the rpm ranges of 4500 and 5200.

I contacted Cobb and Cp-e, both got back to me promptly, to figure out the root cause of the drop. CP-e told me to flash the car to stock and take a log of that, which I did and the fuel pressure stayed at 1650+...even shooting up to 1730 during some of the run. However, this only lasted while having the stock map flashed because as soon as I switched back to a stage 1 93 map, the fuel pressure would dip back down to the 1400's and 1500's for psi.

Cp-e needs a log to proof that the pump is failing during wot with a the stock map--Cobb believes that if the pump is dropping in pressure then it's not able to keep up with the fueling demands. The rebuttal to this from Cp-e was that I need to take this up with Cobb since the pump works perfectly fine with the stock ECU calibrations.

Christian suggested that I might be able to lean out the car a bit in order stress the fueling system less during wot runs (is that even something that I would have to do with a hpfp?). I think the only way to do so at this point would be a pro-tune or ATR (not out yet for Gen2).

[indianaryan]

Wow. This just made my decision EXTREMELY easy on whether to order internals or the CP-E pump. The whole point of an upgraded fuel pump is so that it will keep up with mods and a tune, which is exactly what the Autotech internals are doing. What makes a CP-E pump any better than the stock pump if it can't handle anything other than the stock tune? The stock pump can do that! For what CP-E is charging, I expected better.

[dachtler]

Dizzydtrain, is the 15 log on the stock map, and the 16 log on the Stg1? Your LTFTs on your second log are way out of whack. Have you done a MAF calibration to see how the particular Stg1 map is looking with your MAF sensor?

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by dachtler Dizzydtrain, is the 15 log on the stock map, and the 16 log on the Stg1? Your LTFTs on your second log are way out of whack. Have you done a MAF calibration to see how the particular Stg1 map is looking with your MAF sensor?

Log 15 is stock map, log 16 is the generic Stage 1 93 map. I ran the specific cp-e nano stage 1 93 log a couple of days ago (datalog 9) and the same fuel pressure drops were seen.

Regarding the LTFT's on the second log..I did not do a MAF calibration. Datalog 9 is on the cp-e stage 1 93 map and the LTFT's are between 0 and 3.9ish.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Wow. This just made my decision EXTREMELY easy on whether to order internals or the CP-E pump. The whole point of an upgraded fuel pump is so that it will keep up with mods and a tune, which is exactly what the Autotech internals are doing. What makes a CP-E pump any better than the stock pump if it can't handle anything other than the stock tune? The stock pump can do that! For what CP-E is charging, I expected better.

I don't want to keep people from buying their pump. I will be the first to admit that I love their products and maybe I am very unfortunate with the pump--there is also a possibility that I am missing something here altogether but I figured that it's best to keep everyone aware. After all, it's what makes this forum so great to begin with.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I don't want to keep people from buying their pump. I will be the first to admit that I love their products and maybe I am very unfortunate with the pump--there is also a possibility that I am missing something here altogether but I figured that it's best to keep everyone aware. After all, it's what makes this forum so great to begin with.

You aren't the only one who sees their pressures teetering on the edge of concern..

When we first looked @ this (dizzy, Indian Ryan etc.), although I didn't want to jump to conclusions, I was afraid this was going to happen.

Did you mention to CP-E that others are running the same map, with Autotech Internals, and maintaining good pressure?

I had a feeling that when Christian didn't reply to the second request on the specific log (datalog #4), that their was an issue that somehow needs resolving.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 When we first looked @ this (dizzy, Indian Ryan etc.), although I didn't want to jump to conclusions, I was afraid this was going to happen. Did you mention to CP-E that others are running the same map, with Autotech Internals, and maintaining good pressure? I had a feeling that when Christian didn't reply to the second request on the specific log (datalog #4), that their was an issue that somehow needs resolving.

I did mention it but I have not received a response regarding that yet. I guess this leaves me somewhat stranded for the time being until I can somehow get a replacement or upgrade my medium pressure fuel pump with some autotech internals...

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I did mention it but I have not received a response regarding that yet. I guess this leaves me somewhat stranded for the time being until I can somehow get a replacement or upgrade my medium pressure fuel pump with some autotech internals...

What really sucks is I sent my pump in with 2,000 miles on it, shining and new, and have a "medium pressure" , lets say greater than 2,000 mile fuel pump.

You go on the record as coining the phrase "medium pressure fuel pump". LOL!

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 When we first looked @ this (dizzy, Indian Ryan etc.), although I didn't want to jump to conclusions, I was afraid this was going to happen. Did you mention to CP-E that others are running the same map, with Autotech Internals, and maintaining good pressure? I had a feeling that when Christian didn't reply to the second request on the specific log (datalog #4), that their was an issue that somehow needs resolving.

I'm a fan of CP-E because they put out quality products. What I don't understand is what makes their pump any better than the stock pump in this situation, and why can't they back their product when it obviously isn't doing what it was meant for?

I assume there are others that have had no issues with the CP-E HPFP, so maybe there is a valid explanation for it not holding the fp above 1600 psi in Dizzy's situation. But I don't think it's fair for CP-E to only guarantee that it will keep the fp above 1600 psi ONLY for a stock tune.

I guess it is possible that there is a problem with Cobb's map. I'll stay tuned and hope that either CP-E or Cobb comes up with an answer.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by indianaryan I'm a fan of CP-E because they put out quality products. What I don't understand is what makes their pump any better than the stock pump in this situation, and why can't they back their product when it obviously isn't doing what it was meant for? I assume there are others that have had no issues with the CP-E HPFP, so maybe there is a valid explanation for it not holding the fp above 1600 psi in Dizzy's situation. But I don't think it's fair for CP-E to only guarantee that it will keep the fp above 1600 psi ONLY for a stock tune. I guess it is possible that there is a problem with Cobb's map. I'll stay tuned and hope that either CP-E or Cobb comes up with an answer.

Indianryan, I am just shooting my opinions out there...

I don't know what flashing to the stock map does in CP-E's favor, given CP-E knows why we purchased these pumps, and that certainly was not to run the stock map.

CP-E, Cobb and Ecutek are the only companies yet to crack this ECU (or bother), and surely they know the ECU's behavior @ stock and more agressive tuning levels.

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Indianryan, I am just shooting my opinions out there... I don't know what flashing to the stock map does in CP-E's favor, given CP-E knows why we purchased these pumps, and that certainly was not to run the stock map. CP-E, Cobb and Ecutek are the only companies yet to crack this ECU (or bother), and surely they know the ECU's behavior @ stock and more agressive tuning levels.

Agreed.

The stage1 is hardly an aggressive tune, which makes me wonder how far the CP-E pump was actually designed to go...

It's hard not to jump to conclusions at this point, but maybe there's more to this than what we know now.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Agreed. The stage1 is hardly an aggressive tune, which makes me wonder how far the CP-E pump was actually designed to go... It's hard not to jump to conclusions at this point, but maybe there's more to this than what we know now.

What bugs me is the willingness of Christian to alter the tune (@ least offer suggestive help), and the perception I get of Cp-e's answer to Dizzy.

The first thing Christian / Cobb wants to do is help correct the problem, where as the first thing Cp-e does is blame Cobb (albeit indirectly).

[indianaryan]

I've always hated it when companies point the finger to the other company. It's like CP-E is refusing to look into the possibility that there COULD be a problem with their pump.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Agreed. The stage1 is hardly an aggressive tune, which makes me wonder how far the CP-E pump was actually designed to go... It's hard not to jump to conclusions at this point, but maybe there's more to this than what we know now.

I agree, I have not been able to find any other instances of fuel pressure dropping with the cp-e pump which really puts me in a bind. It's actually ironic at this point because the reliability and quality of this product makes it very tough to proof any faults (if in fact there are any).

[trf5000]

I just put my CP-E pump in about 2 weeks ago. My first logs were awesome and in the upper RPMs i was hitting upwards of 2000PSI. Just did a few logs last night after swtiching maps and was hitting 1700 and 1800 psi, which is pretty good, but not as high as I was initially hitting with my first map. Im gonna keep an eye on my pump as I plan on driving my car alot more now that its warmer and I am curious to see if the pressures will continually drop over time.

[rfinkle2]

Hindsight is always 20/20 (sorry for the cliché), but I feel a bit naive not looking into exactly what the fuel demands would be, and exactly what the CP-E is guaranteed to hold.

Admittedly, I bought the CP-E becuase of the "warranty", but feel like a fool because I'm not even sure what that warranty entails.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I agree, I have not been able to find any other instances of fuel pressure dropping with the cp-e pump which really puts me in a bind. It's actually ironic at this point because the reliability and quality of this product makes it very tough to proof any faults (if in fact there are any).

Sorry to double post, but the ability of the pump to maintain the target psi is just as important as not dropping into the 1400's.

I am interested in how the ecu acts, what the effects on afr targets are etc. if the pump falls below the ap's targets Christian posted in the last page of this thread. (very close to the ~1700 range @ all points wot. )

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by trf5000 I just put my CP-E pump in about 2 weeks ago. My first logs were awesome and in the upper RPMs i was hitting upwards of 2000PSI. Just did a few logs last night after swtiching maps and was hitting 1700 and 1800 psi, which is pretty good, but not as high as I was initially hitting with my first map. Im gonna keep an eye on my pump as I plan on driving my car alot more now that its warmer and I am curious to see if the pressures will continually drop over time.

I am jealous of that. If I could consistently stay in the 1700's during wot, I wouldn't be posting here right now.

[TsaktuO]

If this is their "warranty":


The rebuttal to this from Cp-e was that I need to take this up with Cobb since the pump works perfectly fine with the stock ECU calibrations.


Then you can't say it any better than this:

Originally Posted by indianaryan Wow. This just made my decision EXTREMELY easy on whether to order internals or the CP-E pump. The whole point of an upgraded fuel pump is so that it will keep up with mods and a tune, which is exactly what the Autotech internals are doing. What makes a CP-E pump any better than the stock pump if it can't handle anything other than the stock tune? The stock pump can do that! For what CP-E is charging, I expected better.

TsaktuO

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by TsaktuO If this is their "warranty": The rebuttal to this from Cp-e was that I need to take this up with Cobb since the pump works perfectly fine with the stock ECU calibrations. Then you can't say it any better than this: TsaktuO

I think one of the ways to get to the bottom of this is to find out what the CP-E standback's wot targets are for fuel pressure.

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I think one of the ways to get to the bottom of this is to find out what the CP-E standback's wot targets are for fuel pressure.

According to Sander at CP-E, it's 1667.5 psi.

[rfinkle2]

That is completely in line with Cobb's targets.

1) So, I think we need someone with the standback to show us their stage 1 equivalent logs, and evidence the standback's tuning commands and holds that pressure with the CP-E pump.

Considering friendliness is few and far between on this forum, does anyone know someone with the standback and a cp-e pump willing to share their logs?

2) OR... we need to look @ logs with the autotech internals @ that specific rpm area that Dizzy is having problems with. If there is a dip in FP, although still above the target, we would have a clue as to whether it was the map vs. the pump.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 That is completely in line with Cobb's targets. 1) So, I think we need someone with the standback to show us their stage 1 equivalent logs, and evidence the standback's tuning commands and holds that pressure with the CP-E pump. Considering friendliness is few and far between on this forum, does anyone know someone with the standback and a cp-e pump willing to share their logs? 2) OR... we need to look @ logs with the autotech internals @ that specific rpm area that Dizzy is having problems with. If there is a dip in FP, although still above the target, we would have a clue as to whether it was the map vs. the pump.

Are you referring to anyone with autotech internals and similar mods running Cobb AP or a standback?

[rfinkle2]

Ap... that way, if in that portion of the rev band, the autotech internals dip also, @ that point (no matter if the fuel pressure is above the target), it may be a glitch in the tune.

I.E. We'd expect the auto-tech internals to be above the cp-e pump pressures, but a marked dip where your pump went into the 1400's, maybe the auto techs dip there also, but just not to the extent (1400's) that the cp-e does.

[bertrand_CX_7]

Hey guys what about my log datalog16 I posted last night?

I saw something below 1600 psi with 70% throttle position. Is this a concern?

No one answered me on that.

Thanks pls for taking a look.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by bertrand_CX_7 Hey guys what about my log datalog16 I posted last night? I saw something below 1600 psi with 70% throttle position. Is this a concern? No one answered me on that. Thanks pls for taking a look.

I don't think that any of us is 100% sure what the throttle position vs di fuel pressure targeted means in the instance it does dip below the ap targeted fuel pressure yet... but I won't forget about this post and that you asked that question.

Fwiw, full throttle logs are usually in the mid 70's, so it may be (speculation) that the fuel pump was, in fact keeping up.

[JTMS3]

Originally Posted by indianaryan According to Sander at CP-E, it's 1667.5 psi.

Im no pump expert but that seems on the low side vs. upgraded internals. Maybe it lengthens the life of the HPFP based off of CP-e research. I am holding low 18xxs psi during WOT pulls and that is with my scary PTP internals with the end of pulls reaching 20xx psi. If/when CS comes out with a HPFP we can least have a pump to compare to the CPe in regards to holding pressure at WOT.

[dizzydtrain]

I got an email from Sander and he would like to see some more Cobb AP logs of 2010 speed3's with similar mods as mine. He also mentioned that the logs can not be of cars with an aftermarket release valve (I am guessing this would be a BOV).

I did mention to him that it appears other internals seem to be running a bit higher at wot than the cp-e pumps.

If you guys have a stage 1 Gen2 with similar mods to mine, could you please send me some logs? I currently have a cp-e tmic, cpe-sri, and cp-e hpfp. It doesn't matter what internals you have, the more I can gather the better for comparison.

I will start looking at the ones that I used as examples. Thanks in advance.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I got an email from Sander and he would like to see some more Cobb AP logs of 2010 speed3's with similar mods as mine. He also mentioned that the logs can not be of cars with an aftermarket release valve (I am guessing this would be a BOV). I did mention to him that it appears other internals seem to be running a bit higher at wot than the cp-e pumps. If you guys have a stage 1 Gen2 with similar mods to mine, could you please send me some logs? I currently have a cp-e tmic, cpe-sri, and cp-e hpfp. It doesn't matter what internals you have, the more I can gather the better for comparison. I will start looking at the ones that I used as examples. Thanks in advance.

I'll have take my turbosmart valve off, but I can do that in a hot minute and get you some logs tomorrow (3/19/2011)

First it was the tune, now its the BPV...hmmm.

[trf5000]

Hey Dizzy,

Here is my log for your viewing pleasure.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I'll have take my turbosmart valve off, but I can do that in a hot minute and get you some logs tomorrow (3/19/2011) First it was the tune, now its the BOV...hmmm.

I can verify with Sander but I think if you have a BPV, it's fine. BOV tends to make the car run rich if you run without a tune, if I recall correctly.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I can verify with Sander but I think if you have a BPV, it's fine. BOV tends to make the car run rich if you run without a tune, if I recall correctly.

Understood... I have a Turbosmart BPV (only has full recirc ), and always use those interchangeably (need to be more specific). I'll reinstall my stock one just to avoid any issues.

Will Sander be OK with the floormats I have?

I'm kidding. I understand (to a degree) his apprehension to blame his pump... but we are talking about other quality manufacturers who have been in the game for a long time... not some ebay knockoffs etc.

[wolly6973]

I bet Sander was referring to the Pressure Relief Valve (PRV), not BOV.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 I bet Sander was referring to the Pressure Relief Valve (PRV), not BOV.

That makes sense, considering I've seen mention of a possible larger fuel orifice and prv (x>2000 psi) upgrade.

Thanks Wolly.

It is still fishy though, imo..

[wolly6973]

I can give you some logs with the stock pump, then next week should be able to get some with autotech internals.
I haz CS SRI + TIP & ETS TMIC

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 I can give you some logs with the stock pump, then next week should be able to get some with autotech internals. I haz CS SRI + TIP & ETS TMIC

That would be great Wolly. Can you post on here or pm me?

Thanks.

[Teethkikr]

I haz autotech internals with SRI and 93 octane....

[indianaryan]

I'll be getting my AP in on Monday. I'll post some logs with the stock pump as well.