Rough install guide for 5th port injection kits

[Alpha]

Sumbish... I think my goals just went from 420 AWHP to 520 AWHP.

DJ FTW!!!

PS - F&*K meth.

[djuosnteisn]

When your built... there's no reason not to now.


Clean install Chris.


Has anyone else installed? I've failed at the tuning video so far... but will seriously make it happen soon. It's very straight forward... and only one way of approaching it. I'm sure once more people start running this kit, alternative approaches will pop up (namely you ziggo, haha).

[TWOptSL0W]

I'm still working on getting that damn lid off. My tranny mount fiasco set me back a couple of days for getting that tool. I have to order it since no one carries it

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W I'm still working on getting that damn lid off. My tranny mount fiasco set me back a couple of days for getting that tool. I have to order it since no one carries it

Have chris send you the SST. He's done at this point.

And crazy no autozone has that tool..... oh well.

[TWOptSL0W]

Whats Chris's name?

[djuosnteisn]

bcmurphy.

[Ziggo]

My approach was supposed to be even more simple.

The real baller setup is going to be a PI setup like pablo.


Zigatapatalka

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Ziggo My approach was supposed to be even more simple. The real baller setup is going to be a PI setup like pablo. Zigatapatalka

I still have my doubts on how well a PI setup will perform with this controller... since this controller is predominantly batch fire. The 4 inj version has 2 fuel maps, and i think it fires the inj's in pairs i think... so you can probably help minimize the phase difference between cylinders by using map A injs for cylinders 1 & 3, and map B for 4 & 2... or something like that. But even then, it'd be difficult to correlate which pulse is from which cylinder... in order to prevent spraying a closed valve.


The fifth port seems to be working pretty good IMO. And it's much less complicated.

[Ziggo]

I never heard that spraying on a closed valve was bad for power except for here. From my learnin' it is a fuel efficiency/emissions concern. Spraying only when the valve is open helps mixing and atomization when flow rates are low like idle and low throttle, neither of which we care about here.

Consider this: PI setups are routinely run to 80-90% duty cycle, and are only not run higher due to concerns over damaging the injectors.

The intake valves are open for ~220* out of 720* so if you were to only spray on open valves you wouldn't run your duty cycle above ~30%, if you run to 90% 2/3 of your fuel is being sprayed on a closed valve.

Food for thought.


Zigatapatalka

[djuosnteisn]

I have considered that. My only concern is that some cylinders will be sprayed with an open valve, while others are sprayed with a closed valve... and 2 in between.

I just don't have any solid feel on what kind of cylinder to cylinder variation it would introduce.

[J-Liss]

1,0000000 says PTP steals the idea, PATENT THIS BEYOTCH

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by J-Liss 1,0000000 says PTP steals the idea, PATENT THIS BEYOTCH

Ford already has a patent on using PI in tandem with DI for high load fueling. I looked into it ~2 years ago.


Zigatapatalka

[Ziggo]

Would have to re-read to see if they made it general enough to cover TBI.

Zigatapatalka

[J-Liss]

^ so nice he posted it twice.


cant he patent his design though? but i guess it would be pointless since it would need to be identical to even stir trouble.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I have considered that. My only concern is that some cylinders will be sprayed with an open valve, while others are sprayed with a closed valve... and 2 in between. I just don't have any solid feel on what kind of cylinder to cylinder variation it would introduce.

This wouldn't slow me down in the least, but with the TBI up and running I probably won't be messing with PI till 2014 at the earliest. Too many Miatas running around with batch injection for it to bother me.


Zigatapatalka

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Ford already has a patent on using PI in tandem with DI for high load fueling. I looked into it ~2 years ago. Zigatapatalka

I believe Toyota also used both PI and DI.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I have considered that. My only concern is that some cylinders will be sprayed with an open valve, while others are sprayed with a closed valve... and 2 in between. I just don't have any solid feel on what kind of cylinder to cylinder variation it would introduce.

are the valves for any particular cylinder closed for long enough to really matter? since this setup is only for high rpm, how much fuel would really be sprayed into the runner while the valve is closed?

[TiGraySpeed6]

Toyota/Lexus has been on this for a while now with the IS and GS 350's 2GR-FSE engine

Quote from an engine of the year award thingy-

Regarding the Best New Technology winner, the Lexus IS 350 is powered by a 306-hp, 3.5-litre, 24-valve, dual overhead cam V6 engine that features a unique fuel injection system. This system combines direct fuel injection - delivering fuel to the combustion chamber - and port fuel injection - delivering fuel to the intake ports. Fuel distribution is controlled via the two types of injection according to driving conditions: When the engine is running under low or medium loads at lower speeds, both systems are used to create a homogeneous air-fuel mixture. This stabilizes combustion, improves fuel efficiency, and reduces exhaust emissions. When the engine is running under heavy load, it automatically converts to a direct injection-only system. By controlling the timing and duration of fuel being injected directly to the combustion chamber, the combustion efficiency of each charge is maximized. It also allows the engine to operate at a higher compression ratio, thereby improving engine output and performance, by reducing the tendency of the compressed mixture to ignite prematurely.

White paper with more than you'd likely want to know....
-darn link keeps wanting to imbed the white paper, not just give me a link....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75062860/Toyota-2GR-FSE-GDI-PFI-Engine-Paper

[bcmurphy87]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W Whats Chris's name?

hit me with a pm and you will have it sir

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Quote from an engine of the year award thingy-

Psssshhh... those clowns got it backwards. Supposed to say "PI engaged when pushing the DI well beyond it's design intentions".


Seriously though, it's funny that they use DI only during high load.

[TWOptSL0W]

Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 hit me with a pm and you will have it sir

thanks, but i got that kit from autozone and the cap came off right away...pumps are swapped

[J-Liss]

^ explain yourself sir

[TWOptSL0W]

Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 Went and just gave the auto-zone rental a try and it got it out after a fresh coat of penetrating oil. The core charge was 90 but you get it back when you return it. Also came with a bronze punch and sand filled hammer that I'm sure help to loosen it up. Attachment 66937 Attachment 66938

this kit got the cap right off

Originally Posted by J-Liss ^ explain yourself sir

the kit from autozone that chris got

[bcmurphy87]

so who needs the sst tool now lol

[djuosnteisn]

Me i guess, hahaha. I have a local who's waiting on a filter sock and then needs to swap itfp's.

It's nice to know the vatozone unit works well.

[TWOptSL0W]

dont forget to make yourself a new cap for the big hole you cut under the rear seat



and mark it with something sharp

[bcmurphy87]

i got lucky i cut slits bent it back, removed and bent metal back into place. added weather stripping over cuts and sealed back up lol

[djuosnteisn]

You have to remove WAY more material on the 3's than the 6's. The 6's are just a hair too small. The 3's pretty much just have a hole to access the line and connector.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W dont forget to make yourself a new cap for the big hole you cut under the rear seat and mark it with something sharp

or like this?



I need some art work

[TWOptSL0W]

Originally Posted by Dano or like this?

nah mines better <3

[Dano]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W nah mines better <3

because Nator NY graphic ? lol

I'll give you that.

[djuosnteisn]

Mine's just the old cover bolted back down, with a rag stuffed under it, hahahahahaha.

[Dano]

a la' molotov cocktail style....nice!

[TWOptSL0W]

Originally Posted by Dano because Nator NY graphic ? lol I'll give you that.

no because Nator NJ lol

Originally Posted by Dano a la' molotov cocktail style....nice!

bahahahahahaha

[Dano]

oopps...sorry about the "Y" my bad!

we all know Nator NJ is waaaaay better than Nator NY. Hell you guys will be the first into the 10s...

bwahhhhhhhhh

[pzr2874]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I have considered that. My only concern is that some cylinders will be sprayed with an open valve, while others are sprayed with a closed valve... and 2 in between. I just don't have any solid feel on what kind of cylinder to cylinder variation it would introduce.

But wouldn't that just go back and forth ? 1-3/2-4 ?

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by pzr2874 But wouldn't that just go back and forth ? 1-3/2-4 ?

Largely depends on how the SS controller is setup. In 4 stroke 4 cylinder mode, it fires every other trigger pulse, so once per crank rotation, or every other intake stroke. In 2 stroke 2 cylinder mode, it fires every trigger pulse, so twice per crank rotation, or once per intake stroke.... in which case i guess things would balance out just fine. 1 squirt per cycle means all cylinders receive equal "squirting", lol.

[superskaterxes]

so whos gona be first to install this?

[TWOptSL0W]

as soon as my serial cable comes in, i can finish the install. aside from the pump, everything else should take about an hour

DJ, does the injector boss have to be parallel with the ground with the injectors spraying down? Can it be sideways or not exactly straight? im concerned about the fitment a bit

[forcedinduktion]

Because racecar