3 Port Boost Control Solenoid / Boost Question

[Badinfluence]

Here is something that has been eating at my brain. I have read the Cobb Tuning guide about 20 times, and also tried to learn about this idea because it is not just a MS3 question.


When a car uses a PWM WGDC (Electronic Boost Controller or ECU) for a Solenoid, does the suction (VAC) of the turbo help with the building of boost based on the PWM of the solenoid.

Example
3Port BCS is basically a cop directing traffic from the Wastegate to the Boost source hose or the Turbo Inlet Source (Which is ALWAYS under VAC).
If the tube going to the Turbo Inlet hose, did not have VAC on it would it work as well?

My thoughts are that the Vic of the Turbo Intent hose does helps pull the wastegate closed because it sucks all the pressure out the other direction rather than just let it bleed out. (If it bled it would theoretically have less suction and would stop at Ambient pressure)

2Port works similarly with its just boost/bleed instead and gives it a path to exit instead of a block on the boost side.

https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtu...structions.pdf

This is probably not important to a normal person, but I like to know absolutely everything about what is going on in that Engine's Robot Brain.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence Here is something that has been eating at my brain. I have read the Cobb Tuning guide about 20 times, and also tried to learn about this idea because it is not just a MS3 question. When a car uses a PWM WGDC (Electronic Boost Controller or ECU) for a Solenoid, does the suction (VAC) of the turbo help with the building of boost based on the PWM of the solenoid. Example 3Port BCS is basically a cop directing traffic from the Wastegate to the Boost source hose or the Turbo Inlet Source (Which is ALWAYS under VAC). If the tube going to the Turbo Inlet hose, did not have VAC on it would it work as well? My thoughts are that the Vic of the Turbo Intent hose does helps pull the wastegate closed because it sucks all the pressure out the other direction rather than just let it bleed out. (If it bled it would theoretically have less suction and would stop at Ambient pressure) 2Port works similarly with its just boost/bleed instead and gives it a path to exit instead of a block on the boost side. https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtu...structions.pdf This is probably not important to a normal person, but I like to know absolutely everything about what is going on in that Engine's Robot Brain.

This will help to explain how the "interrupt" of the 3 port helps to increase spool:
Boost Control Systems Explained?.. Part 2 » PERRIN Performance Official Blog

[Badinfluence]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 This will help to explain how the "interrupt" of the 3 port helps to increase spool: Boost Control Systems Explained?.. Part 2 » PERRIN Performance Official Blog

That was a good read, but it really didn't answer my question. I know how 3port BCS works and why it's superior, I am trying to address using vac to Pull the pressure in the BCS to shut the wastegate faster, thus increasing your ability to add more WGDCs. (Less WG lag time)

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence That was a good read, but it really didn't answer my question. I know how 3port BCS works and why it's superior, I am trying to address using vac to Pull the pressure in the BCS to shut the wastegate faster, thus increasing your ability to add more WGDCs. (Less WG lag time)

The gate is shut by default @ whatever spring pressure is in the actuator or in the ewg.

Manipulating the wg with the bcs uses boost or lack thereof and the spring together to achieve a desired pressure. Vacuum is not involved.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence That was a good read, but it really didn't answer my question. I know how 3port BCS works and why it's superior, I am trying to address using vac to Pull the pressure in the BCS to shut the wastegate faster, thus increasing your ability to add more WGDCs. (Less WG lag time)

The TIP does offer some vacuum; however the amount is not too great. The closer you get to 100%WGDC the more the WG actuator is exposed to the vacuum in the TIP which is greater at the highest airflow rate.

However, 3 port being superior to 2 port (bleed) has to be quantified a little more. The bleed setup is both safer and smoother in boost control. The controller has more resolution over a smaller range of operation meaning you have finer control over boost.

[Badinfluence]

Originally Posted by Lex The TIP does offer some vacuum; however the amount is not too great. The closer you get to 100%WGDC the more the WG actuator is exposed to the vacuum in the TIP which is greater at the highest airflow rate. However, 3 port being superior to 2 port (bleed) has to be quantified a little more. The bleed setup is both safer and smoother in boost control. The controller has more resolution over a smaller range of operation meaning you have finer control over boost.

This is the answer I was looking for! Thanks!

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 The gate is shut by default @ whatever spring pressure is in the actuator or in the ewg. Manipulating the wg with the bcs uses boost or lack thereof and the spring together to achieve a desired pressure. Vacuum is not involved.

Pressure is the amount of pounds per square inch built up in the space. The Higher the pressure the more it rushes out to escape. PSHHHHHHHHH! When a path is opened it escapes at the rate it can slowly decreasing as it goes to the ambiant pressure. At whatever the ambiant pressure is it stops. IF the ambiant pressure is lower and has suction on it, it can further speed up the rate at which the flow takes place to the open path.

Yes vacuum is involved because it lowers the ambiant pressure at the end of the tube.

Faster Flow, Faster Release of Pressure, and Faster Shutting of the Waste gate is the theory.

It follows the entire theory of Duty Cycles of the WG by reducing the time it takes to open and close it.

[rfinkle2]

Thanks for the lesson you guys, but let's be honest with the other members of the forum, and answer the question without ambiguity.

For all intents and purposes, the boost control solenoid and wastegate are not controlled by vacuum, they are influenced by boost.

Whatever your goal, smoother boost control or faster spool, if you are going to try and use vacuum to do it, you are not going to be very successful.

[Badinfluence]

If you want to be smart then read the question instead of just posting the first link you see with the collection of words in it.

If you want to say something to the members of the fourm, then admit you didn't read the question and you don't understand it.

It is obvious you have no idea that the Turbocharger Inlet is always under Vacuum and that you have no idea how airflow works. If you don't use Vacuum to build boost then you must be pulling the turbocharged air from your ass.

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

Ron Burgundy - That Escalated Quickly - YouTube

Ron Burgundy - That Escalated Quickly - YouTube

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence If you want to be smart then read the question instead of just posting the first link you see with the collection of words in it. If you want to say something to the members of the fourm, then admit you didn't read the question and you don't understand it. It is obvious you have no idea that the Turbocharger Inlet is always under Vacuum and that you have no idea how airflow works. If you don't use Vacuum to build boost then you must be pulling the turbocharged air from your ass.

I like you man. Fiesty.

I'll do my best to get my skillz up to your standards asap.



Lesson 1.. vacuum builds boost. New one to me, but I'll start tuning that way and see how it works out.

[helmetface]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence If you want to be smart then read the question instead of just posting the first link you see with the collection of words in it. If you want to say something to the members of the fourm, then admit you didn't read the question and you don't understand it. It is obvious you have no idea that the Turbocharger Inlet is always under Vacuum and that you have no idea how airflow works. If you don't use Vacuum to build boost then you must be pulling the turbocharged air from your ass.

Talk to Rob like that again and I'll find you and punch you in the dick.

[ms3blackmica]

The reason the EX port of both the stock 2 port and 3 port ebcs is routed to the TIP is so that metered air is not lost to atmosphere.

You could just as easily vent this port to atmosphere with no boost control issues.

In fact, several people do.

[Badinfluence]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I like you man. Fiesty. I'll do my best to get my skillz up to your standards asap. Lesson 1.. vacuum builds boost. New one to me, but I'll start tuning that way and see how it works out.

Well since Vacuum is required to move air from one side of the Turbocharger to the other, yes it is required. Otherwise your spooling literally nothing or some call it witchcraft.

I am not insulting your skills, you can tune a car without this knowledge.

Everytime you spool a fan the inlet side is under Vaccum and the outlet side has flow. The restriction or blocking creates Pressure.

If you will examine the link I posted in my first post you will see that that is exactly what Cobb does with the Wastegate pressure, it sends it to Vacumm via Turbo Inlet Hose.

6mm of VAC/pressure flow may not be enough to matter, but that was the question really.

If you want to we can just agree on this.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence Well since Vacuum

Are you suggesting that the primary force spooling the turbo is vacuum. No, I apologize, but I can't agree on that.

@Badinfluence; please see ms3blackmica's post above. You are tuning an maf based car in which you are accounting for all of the air that has passed the maf sensor even that which is bled.

The reason that air is returned to the tip is so fueling is correct, not to spool the turbo.

[Badinfluence]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Are you suggesting that the primary force spooling the turbo is vacuum. No, I apologize, but I can't agree on that. Badinfluence; please see ms3blackmica's post above. You are tuning an maf based car in which you are accounting for all of the air that has passed the maf sensor even that which is bled. The reason that air is returned to the tip is so fueling is correct, not to spool the turbo.

Your getting farther away from reality.

No I am saying that if you want to increase pressure with a Fan the other side must have the absense of air. So you are sucking the air from one side to the other. The tube only has so much air and while it's sucking more air a absense builds up creating Vacuum.

The way I said it was wrong, but the concept is the same. Moving air with a Turbine.

Tag me all you want, the question was answered way before that. I am just trying to explaine what a vacuum is since there is a ton of confusion about it.

[rfinkle2]

Best of luck on your tuning.

[2.0t03speed]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence No I am saying that if you want to increase pressure with a Fan the other side must have the absense of air. So you are sucking the air from one side to the other. The tube only has so much air and while it's sucking more air a absense builds up creating Vacuum. The way I said it was wrong, but the concept is the same. Moving air with a Turbine. Tag me all you want, the question was answered way before that. I am just trying to explaine what a vacuum is since there is a ton of confusion about it.

soooo then should everyone just run a 2" intake on their 3071's? that way they can haz the mad fast spoolz with the mega vacuum

[DVM17]

lmao Rob @rfinkle2;

If there's one thing I learned in high school from science. is nothing sucks, everything blows.

There doesn't need to be an "absence" of air to create pressure... the air is still there, creating pressure is just compressing it by adding more air.

And like Rob said. Good luck

[Badinfluence]

Absense would be if there was no more air to flow, example a Vacuum Pump in a sealed container, or that big thing called Space.

http://lpc1.clpccd.cc.ca.us/lpc/tswain/chapt3.pdf

If you read that you will understand science.

I don't need luck because I am not changing anything. If anyone read the first post and tried to use their brain they would understand that. I was asking if it made a difference.

[sidekick]

You could at least respect the fact that @rfinkle2; is trying to help you instead of coming at him like that.

[DVM17]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence Absense would be if there was no more air to flow, example a Vacuum Pump in a sealed container, or that big thing called Space. http://lpc1.clpccd.cc.ca.us/lpc/tswain/chapt3.pdf If you read that you will understand science. I don't need luck because I am not changing anything. If anyone read the first post and tried to use their brain they would understand that. I was asking if it made a difference.

No, you misunderstand what the "good luck" was for. It was for someone to want to deal with your smart comments in this thread and give you what you want. You're very lucky that Rob and Nishan are nice guys.....too nice in fact...

I know science.... I guess I'm still in pre-school in respect to how much you know though.

I'm having a shitty day, I'm usually a nice guy and people can attest to that. But I gotta vent somewhere.

So, GOOD LUCK. lol

And please spell absence right next time.... my inner grammar nazi is killing me.

[ABloodBrother]

One hell of a read hahah.

I remember why I dropped my science classes for pottery lmao. And speaking of tunes @rfinkle2; I haven't heard from you. My heart can only take so much hurt mr finkle.

[manila]

@Badinfluence; I will be there to laugh at your "So my engine went VTA" thread.

FYI: I wouldn't question or second guess both @rfinkle2; & @ms3blackmica;
Hypnoytic Tune FTMFW

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence If the tube going to the Turbo Inlet hose, did not have VAC on it would it work as well?

The boost control solenoid is not dependant on the suction in the TIP.

The EX port of the solenoid is only routed there so that metered air is not lost since this car is a pre-turbo MAF setup. Some people choose to run the EX port VTA and that is fine. It is typically accoutned for at WOT through the MAF curve.

Try disconnecting the EBCS line to your TIP and realize that you will have just as fine boost control VTA.

As Rob said, good luck with your tuning.

[Badinfluence]

Originally Posted by DVM17 No, you misunderstand what the "good luck" was for. It was for someone to want to deal with your smart comments in this thread and give you what you want. You're very lucky that Rob and Nishan are nice guys.....too nice in fact... I know science.... I guess I'm still in pre-school in respect to how much you know though. I'm having a shitty day, I'm usually a nice guy and people can attest to that. But I gotta vent somewhere. So, GOOD LUCK. lol And please spell absence right next time.... my inner grammar nazi is killing me.

Let me help your shitty day a bit. I never called anyone stupid, and I never was trying to make anyone look bad. As I said you can tune a car without any knowledge of what pounds of mercury even is. I was just asking if it actually matter or if it helped. Not if it was needed, not if it was required, not if I could take it to atmosphere, but if it helped.


I understand and thank him for the fact that he is trying to help. I am trying to share information about something that perhaps he didn't know or help further his knowledge of airflow. I believe that making things better is in the small details not the big ones. Change this varable slightly and use this amount to make, this slightly better.

I understood what Good Luck means, and I also understand that conflict can be resolved between two people. The exactly opposite of the gang manatility that everyone on forums seems to love. I would rather settle an arguement peacefully with the full understanding of what happened, how it happened, and what information is correct or in this case was sought after, that is why I picked a common ground of Topgear to try and agree to disagree with a Joke. I guess some people would rather defend their friends and get in the way then actually debate with credable facts.

If I really didn't give a shit I would pick 100 pictures of spiderman and put them in the thread.

Again I am in now way saying your dumb, stupid, can't tune a car, or have no idea how boost control works. I am just saying that there is Vacuum in the Turbo Inlet pipe and asking if it helps relieve pressure off collected inside the pipe and Wastegate spring vessel. FUCK.

Not everything has to turn into who has a black dick and who has an asian dick. If someone says something that is wrong then debate it. Don't call them stupid of wrong, say why? That is what I tried to do, and explain my case.

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica The boost control solenoid is not dependant on the suction in the TIP. The EX port of the solenoid is only routed there so that metered air is not lost since this car is a pre-turbo MAF setup. Some people choose to run the EX port VTA and that is fine. It is typically accoutned for at WOT through the MAF curve.

This is the kind of answer I was looking for all along. I knew it was account for, but it makes more sense.