Methanol Injection info

[rfinkle2]

This is going to go through some edits until I can finish it, but figured @ least some of the info can be posted for now.


Some of what is written here is my opinion, so please be sure to use common sense, and check with your tuner before making any changes to your meth system or installing a kit.

As all of you guys know, methanol injection can be used to increase the octane of the fuel burning in your engine, and cool the charge and exhaust gas temps.
In the case of many of the BT guys, it can also be used as a source of supplemental fuel when you run out of direct injection headroom (aka high IDC’s).
Lots of guys worry about running a methanol injection kit, and because it is a fuel source, is vital to the proper operation of your car, especially if using it as an alternative fuel, some concern is warranted.
I’ve listed what I have found to be good practice when running a kit in terms of maintenance and covered some of what I have found to be the better parts available between the vendors.

PLEASE NOTE: some of the below is not applicable to dual nozzle set-ups or direct runner injection

TESTING YOUR METH INJECTION IS FUNCTIONAL WHILE DRIVING
-For pre-throttle body single nozzle set-ups, it is easy to make sure your meth is spraying without going “full retard”. If you goose the gas, and hit either the boost level or the maf voltage that you are spraying @, you will see your bat’s drop like a rock after letting off the throttle.
-You can also QUICKLY (as not to completely flood the engine.. use a back and forth motion.. do not stop the motion), adjust the controller while driving and watching your afr. (PLEASE be sure to return the controller settings back to where you have your car tuned for)
****IT doesn’t matter if the indicator is pulsing green on your controller, or your led is lit up like a Christmas tree. Just because your pump is functioning doesn’t mean that meth is being injected into your engine. ****
-IMO, most meth kit failures occur while the car has been sitting. Failures can come from stuck check valves, solenoids failing, or leaks.
-In general, if you leave the house and are spraying meth @ the rate you are tuned for, you are likely to be fine for the remainder of the drive.
-Monitor your afr to ensure you are hitting targets
-If your car has been stored or sitting for an extended period of time this member has some good precautionary info.... Hyperlinked to post below.. Methanol Injection info


FAILSAFES AND FLOW GAUGES:
-Aem makes a flow gauge that can be mounted in line. In the case that you have it as close to the nozzle as possible, only a leak @ the nozzle would give a false sense the meth is spraying.
Water/Methanol Flow Gauge | AEM
-They (AEM) also make the most accurate failsafe available (imo)
Water/Methanol Flow Gauge | AEM
-Snow performance's failsafe and gauge.
http://www.snowperformance.net/safeinjection.html

Fittings and lines
- Most of the manufacturers offer push to connect fittings for meth transfer. IMO, these lines and fittings are prone to leaking especially if running tight bends and a trunk mounted tank
- If your budget allows, I highly recommend upgrading your lines to AN hose and fittings or stainless lines
- The standard size for these lines is -4AN
- Push lock hose can also be used, but one of the only methanol compatible push lock hose is linked to below.
- Fragola performance systems series 8600 / 8700
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...-push-lok-hose



-Nozzle size [/B][/B]

- K04 - 7-10 GPH should get you to MBT.
- BT In most cases, a 10-12 GPH nozzle will get you to 400 HP
- If you are making over 400 hp, it is best to collaborate with your tuner on what type of dual nozzle or large nozzle set-up you will need.




NOZZLE PLACEMENT

- Placement in relationship to throttle body- the closer the nozzle to the throttle body, the less overall charge cooling, but the more fuel will make its way to the chamber in the form of supplementary fuel
- Individual runner nozzles can be used, but the more lines and fittings used in the kit, the more connections can leak
**** you can no longer use methods of testing the system using the BAT sensor / Map sensor if you are running direct runner injection****



SOLENOIDS AND CHECK VALVES (please note the 2 integrated check valve nozzle holders available from Snow performance and AEM)

- IMO, it is absolutely critical to run one or the other or both simultaneously. It is critical that no methanol leaks into the intake tract while the car is not running.
- *note : Check valve cracking pressure should be figured into the pressure that you plan on running your nozzle and pump.
- Below is a video of the advantage of running a solenoid (see notes on integrated check valve nozzle holders above)

Water Methanol Injection Solenoid Testing - YouTube

Water Methanol Injection Solenoid Testing - YouTube

NOZZLE MOUNTING OPTIONS


Bungs -
- Depending on your IC piping (which is almost always aluminum), you will need a weld bung that is the same material as the piping.
- I wouldn’t recommend counting on your thin walled IC piping to maintain a tapped thread more for longer than 2 nozzle changes.
-The below bung is lesser expensive than the other bungs available and fits better, imo…

Weld-on Nozzle Bungs (metal pipe) Weld-on Nozzle Bungs (metal pipe) [SPBUNG23] - $15.00 : USRT, Usually Sideways Rally Team



Silicone mounts-
- silicone nozzle mounting options:
-
- Water Alcohol Methanol Ethanol Injection Systems - Articles - Tech Articles - mounting water injection nozzle in silicone





Some of the better parts available from the manufacturers and important notes:

Snow Performance

offers a nozzle holder with integrated check valve (newest version)

Nozzle Holder (check valve equipped) Nozzle Holder [82204] - $29.00 : USRT, Usually Sideways Rally Team


Devils own -
- best stage 1 kit pressure switch (imo),
- offers stainless lines in custom sizing

Alky control -
-uses mcmcaster carr nozzles (highly recommended by cld12pk2go).
-Kit is somewhat customized so you will need to contact Julio and he will guide you through setting up your kit.



Aqua mist -
-Fittings and line are BSP which will need adapter fittings to integrate with other kits
-kits include failsafe.
-Uses BSP pipe threads vs NPT.
-BSP to NPT conversion fittings can be purchased through Mcmaster Carr.



Aem -
offers the widest variety of controllers, although the controller is a pain to mount.
-Full kits come with integrated level switch and pre mounted bulkhead.
-Proprietary nozzle holder with integrated check valve.

-Thread on nozzle holder are not compatible with any standard 1/8 npt nozzles
-Test button on v2 controllers


Mcmaster carr - full cone nozzles available mounting option is different than the remaining nozzles on the market

McMaster-Carr
(thanks to cld12pk2go for the info)

What you can spray with your methanol injection kit…
-Most of the time, you can contact your local race track and ask them if they have methanol available …
-Most tuners will recommend you spray 100% methanol regardless of the kit manufacturer's recommendation. There are very few cases that any water mix is beneficial on most platforms, including ours.
-Yellow bottle heat - Dustin was nice enough to contact Heet in the past and verify that Yellow bottle heet is in fact 99% methanol and although expensive, can be used in a pinch.
-VPM1
VP racing fuel, specialty lubricants, performance chemicals
Sunoco methanol
Sunoco Race Fuels
Other alcohols etc.
Water Alcohol Methanol Ethanol Injection Systems - Articles - Tech Articles - What Type Of Fluids Can I Use With My Water Methanol Injection System

Installation and general maintenance

- Keep lines as square to the fitting as possible when using push to connect
- Recut push to connect nylon lines to rid the line of indentation from old connection every time
- If possible, keep the tank above the pump to allow for gravity feed
- Pump pressure can be used to vary nozzle output
- Large GPH nozzles tend to drip more than smaller nozzles
- A solenoid and check valve can be used, each with advantages and disadvantages
- ****Check valves and screens on nozzles / filters should be flushed with water on a regular interval if running 100% methanol****
- An fittings and push to connect can be interchanged via a gutted check valve if a combination of the 2 is used

Not sure if credit goes to me or Norm, but in a pinch, and you need your meth to spray... necessity is the mother of invention. Trick push to connect to AN fitting flip flop using 1 half of each style gutted check valve

[alaskazero]

Such good information!

[nilashish]

Sticky!!

[tmillner]

Great write up

[cciepunk]

Great info

[King Scumbag]

Good info Rob! Glad to see to you finally got this ball rolling on your meth write up! Great info here!

[dale_gribble]

Great info. I would add a disclaimer that 100% methanol is highly flammable, invisible flame, etc.. The install should be taken seriously. It is a fuel after all.

Fwiw, on my old engine and k04/bnr I really didn't see any massive performance difference between 50/50 or 100% meth on my d07 nor did either setup seem to effect my afrs much at all; afrs were maybe 1/10 of a point richer.

For me, both 50/50 and 100% made a good difference in power (~30whp and more consistent performance year round) over no meth, with the 100% maybe a few hp higher. I ran 100% meth for the last few months and I decided to go back to 50/50.

I say get a smaller nozzle and a larger nozzle. Start with 50/50 and work your way up to to the larger nozzle and 100%. Find what works for your needs with the smallest nozzle and highest wm ratio. Water is a lot cheaper and makes the methanol less flammable.

[Jtaylor]

Thanks for the informative post, this will help me with my WMI kit in the future.

[Lacey28]

Wow rob nice write up

[shadesofgray19]

With tank in the trunk, you probably should not run 100% meth unless you have upgraded line.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Great info. I would add a disclaimer that 100% methanol is highly flammable, invisible flame, etc.. The install should be taken seriously. It is a fuel after all. Fwiw, on my old engine and k04/bnr I really didn't see any massive performance difference between 50/50 or 100% meth on my d07 nor did either setup seem to effect my afrs much at all; afrs were maybe 1/10 of a point richer. For me, both 50/50 and 100% made a good difference in power (~30whp and more consistent performance year round) over no meth, with the 100% maybe a few hp higher. I ran 100% meth for the last few months and I decided to go back to 50/50. I say get a smaller nozzle and a larger nozzle. Start with 50/50 and work your way up to to the larger nozzle and 100%. Find what works for your needs with the smallest nozzle and highest wm ratio. Water is a lot cheaper and makes the methanol less flammable.

Your results are not common, and although I appreciate all input, water is not a fuel, and in the case that someone is trying to add fuel to a tapped out direct injection system, water is going to eat up nozzle size.

I am hesitant to run any water in my meth system tbh, but that is just me.

I do appreciate everyone's input... just wanted to mention that your results are not the norm and for BT guys wanting to supplement fueling, h20 is not an option, imo.

[dale_gribble]

Totally agree with you there. Water is not aux fueling. I guess I may have spoken out of place as I was referring to meth as a cooling agent with some octane boost, not as fueling overhead.

In that case, I'll just say a single d07 on a k04/bnr did not dump enough meth to influence afrs a whole lot.

[pwdunmore]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Installation and general maintenance - Keep lines as square to the fitting as possible when using push to connect - Recut push to connect nylon lines to rid the line of indentation from old connection every time - If possible, keep the tank above the pump to allow for gravity feed - Pump pressure can be used to vary nozzle output - Large GPH nozzles tend to drip more than smaller nozzles - A solenoid and check valve can be used, each with advantages and disadvantages - ****Check valves and screens on nozzles / filters should be flushed with water on a regular interval if running 100% methanol**** - An fittings and push to connect can be interchanged via a gutted check valve if a combination of the 2 is used

Hey Rob,
I experienced my pump seizing after leaving it inactive for the winter months. I would recommend anyone that has the car stored for an extended period of time with methanol injection drain the lines to the pump and re-prime the pump when you take the car out.

My car sat for a couple month last year when I went away for work and my pump when I got back was pooched, while everything else in the system was fine. I think the liquids sitting in the pump for the extended period of time started to cause some chemical reactions or deposited something. My pump motor would not flow any fluid but when I powered up the system manually I could hear the motor in the pump wine.

Thanks for the informative post! I could have used this when I was setting up my meth lol...

[Easter Bunny]

Also for people getting on the track, most road racing sanctioning bodies have a max of 50/50 for safety.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Totally agree with you there. Water is not aux fueling. I guess I may have spoken out of place as I was referring to meth as a cooling agent with some octane boost, not as fueling overhead. In that case, I'll just say a single d07 on a k04/bnr did not dump enough meth to influence afrs a whole lot.

Totally agree. In many cases, even with 100% meth, a gen2 car can run the same map on a d07 and still hit fueling targets.

[Bob-o]

So I just got a meth kit, and was looking to mount into a silicone coupler because front mount.

After reading a bunch, it seems the snow performance mounting adapters would be a safer bet than the devil's own because they are less bulky, screw in from the outside, and won't impede the spray pattern of the nozzle because it sticks out past the mount.

Can I get a confirmation so we can maybe add this to the thread, or make a note to observe spray patterns to ensure a fine mist is being sprayed?

[ms6mil]

I was curious about this too. From an older post the DO claimed they redid the nozzle to correct the inadequate spray pattern as @Tomas; demonstrated in his thread...
On The Matter of MW Injection

Here's DO comment on that...



Here's @aaronC5Z; input on this is as well. Devil's Own Self Tapping Nozzle?


I haven't seen any more recent posts from DO or anyone else to confirm or deny that it's still an issue. I have DO's nozzle adapters for a dual setup, but haven't installed yet. Is there any input on this from folks that are using them to make sure we're aren't setting ourselves up for failure

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Bob-o So I just got a meth kit, and was looking to mount into a silicone coupler because front mount. After reading a bunch, it seems the snow performance mounting adapters would be a safer bet than the devil's own because they are less bulky, screw in from the outside, and won't impede the spray pattern of the nozzle because it sticks out past the mount. Can I get a confirmation so we can maybe add this to the thread, or make a note to observe spray patterns to ensure a fine mist is being sprayed?

Originally Posted by ms6mil I was curious about this too. From an older post the DO claimed they redid the nozzle to correct the inadequate spray pattern as @Tomas; demonstrated in his thread... On The Matter of MW Injection Here's DO comment on that... I haven't seen any more recent posts from DO or anyone else to confirm or deny that it's still an issue. I have DO's nozzle adapters for a dual setup, but haven't installed yet. Is there any input on this from folks that are using them to make sure we're aren't setting ourselves up for failure

Nozzle mounts really depend on how deep that threads are from the manufacturer.

Personally, I would find a combination of washers and nuts that will allow you to mount the nozzle without an adapter.

This is a Mcmaster carr nozzle mounted in a JBR silicone boost tube for a car running a tmic. Also using a Snow Performance check valve nozzle holder.

[Gr8Speed]

Awesome write up Rob.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by pwdunmore Hey Rob, I experienced my pump seizing after leaving it inactive for the winter months. I would recommend anyone that has the car stored for an extended period of time with methanol injection drain the lines to the pump and re-prime the pump when you take the car out. My car sat for a couple month last year when I went away for work and my pump when I got back was pooched, while everything else in the system was fine. I think the liquids sitting in the pump for the extended period of time started to cause some chemical reactions or deposited something. My pump motor would not flow any fluid but when I powered up the system manually I could hear the motor in the pump wine. Thanks for the informative post! I could have used this when I was setting up my meth lol...

Added your post to the OP. Thank you sir.

[jdmage_mx5]

So quick solenoid vs check valve question. If you were going to run both where would you place each one? Solenoid at the nozzle and check valve between tank and pump?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by jdmage_mx5 So quick solenoid vs check valve question. If you were going to run both where would you place each one? Solenoid at the nozzle and check valve between tank and pump?

Snow has been recommending putting a solenoid back near the pump, but that is not a traditional place to put it.

If you were going to run a solenoid and check valve, I would put the check valve after the solenoid.

[dale_gribble]

What we need now is for someone that will design a failsafe with hooks into the car to automatically reduce boost/ignition in a meth flow cutout condition. I imagine it wouldn't be rocket science to create something that would measure meth flow and in the event of a failure, send something to the EBCS that could instantly and automatically force boost cut.

Since we don't have a standalone system, we really can't get a signal INTO the ECM to do anything so I think ignition is out (unless aftermarket ignition). I can't imagine it would be too crazy to intercept ECM _> EBCS signal and inject a different signal to EBCS to pull boost in meth flow cut conditions. Who wants to make some $$$?

[faeker]

Snow says that their safeboost has the ability to cut boost with additional wastegate/bpv solenoids. It's not direct ecm communication but it's something. I think it relies on the driver seeing the warning and deciding, hey..maybe I should stop what i'm doing and baby this bish until I can stop and see wtf just happened.


I love reading Rob's write ups. It shows how much he cares about this platform and wants to see everyone working properly and safely. Thank you Rob. Your work once again goes above and beyond the norm.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble What we need now is for someone that will design a failsafe with hooks into the car to automatically reduce boost/ignition in a meth flow cutout condition. I imagine it wouldn't be rocket science to create something that would measure meth flow and in the event of a failure, send something to the EBCS that could instantly and automatically force boost cut. Since we don't have a standalone system, we really can't get a signal INTO the ECM to do anything so I think ignition is out (unless aftermarket ignition). I can't imagine it would be too crazy to intercept ECM _> EBCS signal and inject a different signal to EBCS to pull boost in meth flow cut conditions. Who wants to make some $$$?

The ignition advance can't be done right yet (or @ least with otc parts), but the aem failsafe will send a 12v signal to a relay which can operate a solenoid or bov and it will cut boost down to spring pressure.

Dano mentioned his was not particularly reliable, but maybe Faeker's idea would be a good substitute.

Thanks Faeker. btw.

And @dale_gribble; I hope that I didn't come off jerky in response to your post above. I'm just not a fan of water in the mix.

IMO, it may be worth experimentation for long, sustained periods of wot operation since it is said that h20 has a greater effect on cooling egt's vs. bat's, but for street use and an octane bump, 100% meth is best.

If h20 works for you, that is awesome too.

[dale_gribble]

Rob, it's your information piece and homework. It may not have been the right venue for me to establish my position and experiences since we all differ. I realized that. It's good to give everyone a baseline of information (which you did), and let them do their research and find they need.

Above all else, I really just wanted people to not take meth for granted as is a flammable fuel and must be treated with respect. I have seen some meth installations that made me CRINGE because people think its harmless. People need to basically treat methanol like gas and give it the same diligence. At least 50/50 gives some cover for bad or improper installations and won't be a big fire hazard in an accident. I still stand by what I said that I think 50/50 or some mixture is a good starting point while working up to 100% and working any issues out of the system. Once the confidence is there, the system is working, and operator familiarity is there then they should go to 100% and go for it. IMO 50/50 is MUCH better than no meth injection by a long shot. I personally wasn't able to quantify any gains beyond 50/50 with my tired old motor but I'm sure if my motor wasn't hurting and I was able to push harder, I would have been able to quantify the gains of the 70/30 and 100 I was running at the end.

After my new motor break in and I go back to meth, I decided to get the AEM flow gauge. I used to use my BATs as a metric of if meth was working, but with the new motor, I want to make sure the curve is right and immediately detect any issues. I'll get the failsafe if someone ever comes up with a clever way to manage a BPV/BCS.

[shaneski]

Originally Posted by faeker I love reading Rob's write ups. It shows how much he cares about this platform and wants to see everyone working properly and safely. Thank you Rob. Your work once again goes above and beyond the norm.

Ahmen!! I do a search of any new posts by Rob each time i log in so i can get educated.

[skeurton]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble What we need now is for someone that will design a failsafe with hooks into the car to automatically reduce boost/ignition in a meth flow cutout condition. I imagine it wouldn't be rocket science to create something that would measure meth flow and in the event of a failure, send something to the EBCS that could instantly and automatically force boost cut. Since we don't have a standalone system, we really can't get a signal INTO the ECM to do anything so I think ignition is out (unless aftermarket ignition). I can't imagine it would be too crazy to intercept ECM _> EBCS signal and inject a different signal to EBCS to pull boost in meth flow cut conditions. Who wants to make some $$$?

The Aquamist actually does this. It has failsafes built-in for low and high flow conditions. You have to manually set the trigger points for those conditions, but that's fairly simple.

As seen in the wiring diagram, the meth controller taps into the EBCS signal.



If it detects a low or high flow condition, it opens the wastegate and dumps boost. I actually caught a log of a high flow condition. It was pretty smooth when it happened, too. It wasn't like running into a brick wall or anything.



It also has some added flexibility in that you can tie in other failsafes, as well. For instance, if the ECU has map switching capabilities, it can trigger that and change maps on the fly based on the condition.

@rfinkle2; My apologies if I'm cluttering things up. I can delete this if you find it irrelevant to the original purpose of your thread.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by skeurton The Aquamist actually does this. It has failsafes built-in for low and high flow conditions. You have to manually set the trigger points for those conditions, but that's fairly simple. As seen in the wiring diagram, the meth controller taps into the EBCS signal. If it detects a low or high flow condition, it opens the wastegate and dumps boost. I actually caught a log of a high flow condition. It was pretty smooth when it happened, too. It wasn't like running into a brick wall or anything. It also has some added flexibility in that you can tie in other failsafes, as well. For instance, if the ECU has map switching capabilities, it can trigger that and change maps on the fly based on the condition. @rfinkle2; My apologies if I'm cluttering things up. I can delete this if you find it irrelevant to the original purpose of your thread.

Nelson, anything you contribute is always welcome. Good to see you around.

[Vader]

Sweet write up.

I saw -AN mentioned, but not compression fittings. They offer a cost effective way to stay leak free as well. And can usually be had locally.

I'll dig a pic up of my setup when I get home.

[Nitr0EngiE]

it is very informative. thanks

for anyone who cares i have been running the 2.25 Gallon tank in my trunk with the newest 300 psi pump, before that i ran the older 200 psi pump with 5qt tank in trunk and I only use check valves no solenoids directly connected to the nozzle i best, when putting it away from nozzle you get allot of leakage when you stop spraying (everything in the line after the valve will drip)

that is why when i made my direct port methanol system I put a check valve on every single nozzle i was getting mad drip with one valve before the direct port manifold.

I however did not like knowing if it was working or not without the BAT sensor there to advise me. So I am selling my direct port methanol and going back to single port.

it also concerned me that I cannot verify each check valve is opening or not or nozzle clogged, my thinking is that if the methanol is working ona single valve it will mix with the air and any imbalances of air flow will be evenly un balanced methanol too because it is mixed. That is my train of thought so I am reverting to single port even though my direct port setup was sexy I liked single better.

I am going to put my nozzle pre intercooler however my intercooler is air to water and it sits vertical where the in is at the top and out at bottom so there wont be anywhere for fluid to collect in intake trac

I also went with full SS lines -4AN worth every penny for piece of mind and I am appalled that none of these other companies even fucking offer stainless other than devils own, so my last methanol development is i want a flow gauge in which I can install a sensor with AN fittings, I dont want the push loc kind because then it creates a weak spot in my system.

I added some images of my setup

[meangeenvr]

Great write up! Thanks!

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 IMO, it may be worth experimentation for long, sustained periods of wot operation since it is said that h20 has a greater effect on cooling egt's vs. bat's, but for street use and an octane bump, 100% meth is best. If h20 works for you, that is awesome too.

Water has an octane of infinity...........

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Water has an octane of infinity...........

That may be true, but it is not a fuel. In my experience, a high concentration of water eats up nozzle size, lessens the charge cooling effect of the methanol and only carries with it relative safety and cost savings vs. running 100% meth.

I have tried every variation of h20 to meth, creeped every forum imagineable in terms of meth injection results and 98% of the people running meth kits will tell you that 100% meth is the best performer when looking for the octane bump needed for running aggressive ignition advance.

[ge3kspd]

@drivebyfire;

[Drive By Fire]

Great write up! Answers a lot of questions I had about running meth.

Originally Posted by ge3kspd @drivebyfire;

Nailed it! ^


Sent from my iPad using Tapappallday

[rfinkle2]

Nozzle mounting option via JMF fabrication coming soon.

[ms6mil]

I'll purchase this immediately. Any rough estimate on release? Money's burning a hole..

[jdmage_mx5]

That is pretty damn awesome! Can't wait to buy one of those.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by ms6mil I'll purchase this immediately. Any rough estimate on release? Money's burning a hole..

I should get 2 early ones today.. 1 for me and 1 for the freek for testing. If all goes well, Jim said he'd bang them right out for us.

I have no idea what he plans on charging for them, but, Jim is usually fairly reasonable price wise.