Methanol Injection info

[ms6mil]

According to his FB reply he said $69.xx I think that's pretty good. Hope the testing goes well. (and fast)

[Sebs6]

^^^^agreed so much better and cleane... Instead of drilling into the intercooler piping.

[ArmanRus]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Nozzle mounting option via JMF fabrication coming soon.

@Gr8Speed; for when you go FMIC.

[KCi]

Awesome product. Gives the kit a nice thermal insulator and it will complete the kit even more! Pretty sure everyone won't mind paying a little more for it.

[09TrueRedGTX]

Neat idea!

Something to note. With this spacer added, you will need to use a solenoid before the nozzle, since the nozzle will be after the throttle plate. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[faeker]

A solenoid is used when the tank is higher than the nozzle and to prevent unwanted siphoning. How would having it behind the tb make a difference? I wouldn't think any additional vaccuum would exist post tb vs pre.

tapped by satan

[09TrueRedGTX]

Originally Posted by faeker A solenoid is used when the tank is higher than the nozzle and to prevent unwanted siphoning. How would having it behind the tb make a difference? I wouldn't think any additional vaccuum would exist post tb vs pre. tapped by satan

From my SNOW installation guide:

"When mounting nozzles, we recommend before the throttle body/ throttle plate. If you mount the nozzle after the throttle body/plate, a solenoid upgrade must be used to prevent siphoning at Idle."

[faeker]

Hm. Wouldn't think there would be any post vac. Well, since it's said by a alcohol system manufacturer there....why would you ask if it's needed? I believe they know what they're talking about. If snow says it's needed, I think they've put some work into it and came to that conclusion.

It is good to bring that to attention though since someone may just toss it in willy nilly without properly fleshing out the proper parts list.

tapped by satan

[09TrueRedGTX]

I wasn't asking. Lol. I was noting it for ppl interested in the spacer.

[faeker]

It's early. I read things differently when I'm barely awake.

tapped by satan

[Lacey28]

Waiting on robs testing

[rfinkle2]

You guys are both right. To prevent any siphoning or drip while the car is in vacuum or off, a solenoid or check valve is used.

If you think about direct port (intake manifold) meth injection, usually each nozzle has either a solenoid or check valve or one right before the distribution block.

[radbrad]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You guys are both right. To prevent any siphoning or drip while the car is in vacuum or off, a solenoid or check valve is used. If you think about direct port (intake manifold) meth injection, usually each nozzle has either a solenoid or check valve or one right before the distribution block.

After talking to DO, they do not recommend putting a check valve on each nozzle for direct port. Something about it having too much crack pressure with 4 check valves. In the end, I put the check valve right before the block.

Not sure about the solenoid for direct port..

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by radbrad After talking to DO, they do not recommend putting a check valve on each nozzle for direct port. Something about it having too much crack pressure with 4 check valves. In the end, I put the check valve right before the block. Not sure about the solenoid for direct port..

That makes good sense. With a 15 psi cracking pressure, you are using 60 psi of pump pressure just to open the check valve.

A solenoid has no crack pressure.

Thank you @radbrad;

Initial testing and pics.

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[magicka]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 That makes good sense. With a 15 psi cracking pressure, you are using 60 psi of pump pressure just to open the check valve. A solenoid has no crack pressure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't quite right. In a pressurized container, the same outward force is acting on every point. The problem with multiple check valves is that they won't all open at exactly the same pressure/time. There is a chance that once two or three are open that there will not be enough pressure to crack the remaining valve(s). Swapping to a single valve prior to the block solves the cracking problem, but leaves a length of tubing between the valve and nozzle. Solenoids can be synchronized to open at the same time and located on the nozzles.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by magicka Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't quite right. In a pressurized container, the same outward force is acting on every point. The problem with multiple check valves is that they won't all open at exactly the same pressure/time. There is a chance that once two or three are open that there will not be enough pressure to crack the remaining valve(s). Swapping to a single valve prior to the block solves the cracking problem, but leaves a length of tubing between the valve and nozzle. Solenoids can be synchronized to open at the same time and located on the nozzles.

My understanding is that the nozzles are rated for a given flow pressure. It is usually a curve that rises exponentially to a certain flow point.

The crack pressure usually is figured into the thought of how much a give nozzle will put out given pump pressure - crack pressure.

What you say makes perfect sense as well. I would have to test that but if the lines are all 100% equal length, all should crack @ the same time.

(assuming they aren't $2 springs and rubber stoppers, and have a tight tolerance, which they don't LOL)

[magicka]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My understanding is that the nozzles are rated for a given flow pressure. It is usually a curve that rises exponentially to a certain flow point. The crack pressure usually is figured into the thought of how much a give nozzle will put out given pump pressure - crack pressure. What you say makes perfect sense as well. I would have to test that but if the lines are all 100% equal length, all should crack @ the same time. (assuming they aren't $2 springs and rubber stoppers, and have a tight tolerance, which they don't LOL)

It's been a while since my last physics class, but with an incompressible fluid, line length shouldn't matter either.

I have no idea how much pressure drops in the system once the valves open. I'll have to do some looking from a computer tomorrow.

As long as you aren't running huge nozzles and massive amounts of boost (since actual cracking pressure will be spring pressure + manifold pressure), you should still be able to exceed cracking pressure for four check valves. The $2 springs worry me, though.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by magicka It's been a while since my last physics class, but with an incompressible fluid, line length shouldn't matter either. I'll have to do some looking from a computer tomorrow. As long as you aren't running huge nozzles and massive amounts of boost, you should still be able to exceed cracking pressure for four check valves. The $2 springs worry me, though.

I hate to be a dick about it, but many times, text book fluid dynamics don't really apply to $10 check valves, push to connect tubing and garden misting nozzles.

Not that I am not down for intellectual conversation, but anyone running a meth kit without a check valve or solenoid is asking for trouble.

[magicka]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I hate to be a dick about it, but many times, text book fluid dynamics don't really apply to $10 check valves, push to connect tubing and garden misting nozzles. Not that I am not down for intellectual conversation, but anyone running a meth kit without a check valve or solenoid is asking for trouble.

I don't take it as dickish at all, and fully admit I have no practical experience with WMI. I'm in this thread to learn and plan for a future install. I absolutely agree with you about the need for either check valves or solenoids.

Also, fuck push loc fittings. AN or bust.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by magicka I don't take it as dickish at all, and fully admit I have no practical experience with WMI. I'm in this thread to learn and plan for a future install. I absolutely agree with you about the need for either check valves or solenoids. Also, fuck push loc fittings. AN or bust.

Hell yeah.

BTW, I should have said .20 spring. LOL.

[ms6mil]

@rfinkle2;

Are you just testing for a single nozzle or are you trying alternate configurations other than having the solenoid right at the plate?

If running dual setup, are there any draw backs from running the meth line into the solenoid then dual lines to the JM plate with two inline check valves at the nozzles.

This is the configuration I was planning, previously had them connecting to the DO nozzle taps to the Intercooler pipe.


Looks like you have tested with the solenoid/nozzle directly to the plate, would a second solenoid be recommended in lieu of the check valves (dual setup).



I guess I'm not really following the discussion of crack pressures in regards to this plate and Direct Port. DO is recommending 'NOT' to run check valves for Direct Port or multiple nozzles because of cracking pressure, they also recommend to NOT run more than a 50/50 mix (we know how that goes). I'm assuming that @Nitr0EngiE; setup mentioned above was running without issue minus his obvious concerns.

So in regard to this plate and all dual or multiple nozzle setups, are we seeing any problems with check valves and their cracking pressures in relation to inadequate meth pump pressures?

Also, is there a concern of substantial vacuum post throttle body to warrant an upgrade from check valve to solenoid?



I am ready to get this dual nozzle setup put in, but will wait on this plate to be released, if nothing else to test how the dual setup with check valves and/or solenoids in place. Hopefully the wait won't be too long...

[rfinkle2]

There is going to have to be a second revision for guys with stock manis and I have some ideas about how it can be improved upon, but so far in my car and will spray today.

[rfinkle2]

Whomever tests the stock mani or eventually gets one for the jmf and needs a hand.. I may know where to get fittings and what is available.

[faeker]

Dude, I love seeing all your toys and parts in the garage. I need to swing over again just to take it all in.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by faeker Dude, I love seeing all your toys and parts in the garage. I need to swing over again just to take it all in.

You are welcome here anytime Mike.

[Snyeed]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Whomever tests the stock mani or eventually gets one for the jmf and needs a hand.. I may know where to get fittings and what is available.

Hook it up! I bought a jmf mani with direct port methanol injection.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by ArmanRus @Gr8Speed; for when you go FMIC.

Have already talked to Rob about being a test pilot on it Thanks Arman!

[Mistersix]

This plate is a great solution for some custom fmic guys like myself. My setup left me not very much space between the tb and bpv for a proper wmi setup.

[jdmage_mx5]

JMF has it on their site now. I placed my order earlier today and had a tracking number by the end of the day. I guess we shall see how it fits with oem intake manifold/ throttle body and cpe FMIC.

[rfinkle2]

This is going on as well.

These guys are all long time ms3 and ms6 owners and heavily involved on msf and their local nator chapter.

Damond Motorsports has always put out ultra high quality stuff and this design has a smaller foot print and more nozzle mounting options.


http://damondmotorsports.com/products/mazdaspeed-3-6-tb-spacer-with-injection-ports-pre-buy

[jdmage_mx5]

Yea, I saw that and was about to buy the MD one. I know a few people are getting MD so I'll get the JMF to provide some input on it.

Options make the world go around....or something like that.

Edit: I'll spread the love, I just ordered one from MD also. I'll see which I like better and make someone's day better with the other.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by jdmage_mx5 Yea, I saw that and was about to buy the MD one. I know a few people are getting MD so I'll get the JMF to provide some input on it. Options make the world go around....or something like that. Edit: I'll spread the love, I just ordered one from MD also. I'll see which I like better and make someone's day better with the other.

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2

I'm running the original DM prototype on my car. I can say, and @rfinkle2; can confirm it works very well. Especially if you don't try to spray way too much meth.

I also may have heard that the final version for sale will get gussied up and made prettier, not that the one I have doesn't look good in there.

[ms6mil]

Got my JMF throttle spacer Friday. I was able to get it installed with the stock Intake Manifold. Gonna get some testing done tomorrow.

Dual Nozzle Meth Install

I upgraded to all -4AN fittings and SS lines. Had some fun trying to get the spacer to work the way I wanted, but all is well. @rfinkle2; those silver 90* nozzle holder FPT to -4AN could have made the day a little easier. Where did you pick those up at? I couldn't find em when I was purchasing everything for the install.

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 I'm running the original DM prototype on my car. I can say, and @rfinkle2; can confirm it works very well. Especially if you don't try to spray way too much meth. I also may have heard that the final version for sale will get gussied up and made prettier, not that the one I have doesn't look good in there.

I was curious to see if you would elaborate on your experience, in regards to the statement 'trying to spray way too much meth'. What % was your mix? What size nozzle? Dual or single? What was the intent on the mix you started with that led you to this conclusion?

[rfinkle2]

He was trying to spray the equivalent of 20 gph on the k04.

That was most likely my fault due to mis-communication.

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by ms6mil I was curious to see if you would elaborate on your experience, in regards to the statement 'trying to spray way too much meth'. What % was your mix? What size nozzle? Dual or single? What was the intent on the mix you started with that led you to this conclusion?

Rob is being kind above^^.

I completely misunderstood our discussion and mistook a future set-up for what should be run currently.

So I setup the plate with 2 nozzles spraying around 12gph each, on my k04.

It was entertaining and comically slow, but way too much meth.

[ms6mil]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 Rob is being kind above^^. I completely misunderstood our discussion and mistook a future set-up for what should be run currently. So I setup the plate with 2 nozzles spraying around 12gph each, on my k04. It was entertaining and comically slow, but way too much meth.

Ahh.. got ya. Yeah that's a healthy dose of meth. Thanks for the info. I am going to be testing things out today with dual nozzles. I'm starting off with two DO7's.

I think the only negative thing about this spacer, at least on my setup, is when I want to change nozzles I will have to remove everything. Depending on how things go with the dual DO7's I will be swapping them out for the DO10's

Thanks again.

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by ms6mil Ahh.. got ya. Yeah that's a healthy dose of meth. Thanks for the info. I am going to be testing things out today with dual nozzles. I'm starting off with two DO7's. I think the only negative thing about this spacer, at least on my setup, is when I want to change nozzles I will have to remove everything. Depending on how things go with the dual DO7's I will be swapping them out for the DO10's Thanks again.

Yeah, at first I thought it'd be a hassle to switch things out during the beginning test fitting stages. After a time or two, it seriously is a quick and easy job though.

Enjoy testing!

[Addikted To Boost]

Great info in this thread thanks Rob and everyone who has contributed so far. I just got done installing my DO MAF kit yesterday and have a couple questions. First is about the check valve, I am just trying to make sure I understand its function correctly. So is the check valve performing two functions? The first of which would be keeping boost pressure from cramming water back through the line into the pump (at boost levels lower than the setpoint to actuate the pump), and second since it has a "cracking pressure" it is keeping the water in the line from being sucked in while the IM is in vacuum? I assume they must design the cracking pressure to be higher than any vacuum level the engine might produce.

Also, I used the MD spacer, its awesome

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Addikted To Boost Great info in this thread thanks Rob and everyone who has contributed so far. I just got done installing my DO MAF kit yesterday and have a couple questions. First is about the check valve, I am just trying to make sure I understand its function correctly. So is the check valve performing two functions? The first of which would be keeping boost pressure from cramming water back through the line into the pump (at boost levels lower than the setpoint to actuate the pump), and second since it has a "cracking pressure" it is keeping the water in the line from being sucked in while the IM is in vacuum? I assume they must design the cracking pressure to be higher than any vacuum level the engine might produce. Also, I used the MD spacer, its awesome

Nailed it. Check valve also serves to keep meth from draining into the intake mani when the car is off, but otherwise^^^100% on point.