Freektune recommended methanol injection setup.

[Ds_06_Speed6]

Justin has tuned my car and I have asked him what I should do next to break the 300whp mark on the the stock turbo. His suggestion was ethanol blend or meth injection. Meth injection would be the easiest set up for me in my area. ive been reading a shit ton of threads on here concerning WMI and everyone has their own opinions on every kit out there so makes it difficult to choose. Since I will retune with freektune again after installing, might as well see what they suggest.

Right now, about all I know is I want trunk mounted fairly large tank(was eyeballing the 6 gallon with pump mount DO tank), I want to run stainless lines and I do want a failsafe in place. Also does Feektune prefer pre-TB nozzle mount or post TB nozzle mount(I do have the JBR TB plate already).

Guess thats it. Hopefully you guys can show me the right direction. Im fine even peicing a setup together from different companies if I have to.

Thanks.

[PapaBruno]

I'm also tuned by Justin and am hoping to break the 400WHP mark by adding meth to my setup.

I've been sitting on the AEM V2 Water/Methanol Injection Kit (Internal Map) with a 1-gallon tank since like last December - just haven't had the time to install it. Now that Summer is pretty much over, I'll likely start the install soon.

I also wound up buying the Snow Performance Meth/Water Injection Solenoid Upgrade so I can have the tank mounted higher than the injection point, using the TB spacer from @Matt@DamondMotorsports, and bought the AEM Water/Methanol FAILSAFE Device - 1/4" SAE to keep everything in check.

Everything, with the exception of the TB spacer can be bought from @EdgeAutosport.com. Both vendors have always taken care of me and both have outstanding customer service!

[Solarsurge]

Methanol is fun, and it works, but it's also risky and can be catastrophic if you have a pump failure. Most folks recommend Aquamist or Snow for reliability. I have Snow, myself, but I'm only running mine for cooling, not for knock limiting. Devil's Own nozzles are fine, but their pumps have seen some failures. If meth is for power, run a failsafe for sure, no matter what kit you go with.

Ethanol blends are less risky and far easier to deal with since you're just putting it in the gas tank, however you are limited to around 380 HP with stock fuel sytem as it consumes more fuel for the same power level. You may also have availability issues of E85 in certain areas.

[stockms3]

I am interested in meth as well but I'm starting to think about just adding fuel injectors instead and just using more fuel with e85. However, the fuel set up will probably be more expensive but possibly more reliable?

Not trying to derail the post I'm subbed to see what other have to say about meth.

[Solarsurge]

Originally Posted by stockms3 I am interested in meth as well but I'm starting to think about just adding fuel injectors instead and just using more fuel with e85. However, the fuel set up will probably be more expensive but possibly more reliable? Not trying to derail the post I'm subbed to see what other have to say about meth.

If 300 at the wheels is all you want, just get a E50 tune. Nothing else required (assuming you have the basics done - HPFP, intake, exhaust, etc.) When you’re going for 400+ that’s when the money gets big.


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[5doorsoffury]

E85 vs meth really depends on where the pumps are. There are 2 within 10 miles of my house. Thats it.... so when i went out east and didnt bring a 5 gallon jug with me i found my self in trouble. 1/4 tank left no AP and no e85 stations near me. I was sweatin more then a priest on a jerry springer show right before the mystery guest comes on stage... I put 87 in the tank and i was pinging all the way home. My ass puckered when i had to get on the freeway with a super short on ramp that you basicly stop at.

The nice thing about a meth tune is when you run out you just dont have to hit the gas and your fine since the tune dosent get aggresive until the meth is supposed to pump. You can get gas from any station. When you need to bring some for a long trip you need a gallon jug and not a 5 gallon or more gas can. The bighest reason to go meth is cost. A middle of the road reliable meth setup is no where near the cost of PI.

I fucking love e85 for all the reasons you guys say but goddam the lack of stations in some areas.

[Ds_06_Speed6]

E85 just isnt an option in my area, which is why I must go with meth injection.

As far as failsafe goes, that AEM failsafe gauge has to trigger something, whats it usually triggering as the failsafe?

[Thor Hammer]

Originally Posted by Ds_06_Speed6 E85 just isnt an option in my area, which is why I must go with meth injection. As far as failsafe goes, that AEM failsafe gauge has to trigger something, whats it usually triggering as the failsafe?

AEM link:
https://www.aemelectronics.com/files...e%20Device.pdf

I haven't checked but you can possibly connect the output of the AEM gauge to a Stratified Guardian Angel to dump boost when an alarm occurs. I would also run a wideband/boost gauge to do the same as it monitors AFR under all conditions. I also plan to install a current sensor on the motor so I know if it has failed.

My kit is Devils Own.

As far as injection point its well worth the time to search Dale Gribbles extensive posts where he tests different injection points for the meth nozzles.

After reading all his verifiable results I will be injecting pre TB.

This should get you started:
Dale's meth injection fun - pre vs. post TB and dual vs. single nozzle

[Ds_06_Speed6]

Originally Posted by Thor Hammer AEM link: https://www.aemelectronics.com/files...e%20Device.pdf I haven't checked but you can possibly connect the output of the AEM gauge to a Stratified Guardian Angel to dump boost when an alarm occurs. I would also run a wideband/boost gauge to do the same as it monitors AFR under all conditions. I also plan to install a current sensor on the motor so I know if it has failed. My kit is Devils Own. As far as injection point its well worth the time to search Dale Gribbles extensive posts where he tests different injection points for the meth nozzles. After reading all his verifiable results I will be injecting pre TB. This should get you started: Dale's meth injection fun - pre vs. post TB and dual vs. single nozzle

Thanks Thor, I did read that thread yesterday, but based on his findings, as long as I have Justin tune for it either injection point should work. Since I still run a TMIC, just seems easier to go post TB with a plate. Idk, lots to think about. lol

Yeah, I am looking at the Gaurdian Angel, and that is what I will run as my failsafe.

[Ds_06_Speed6]

Ok, after a fuck ton of reading and comparing kits and shit I think I know what Ill be doing.

AEM Failsafe flow guage linked to a Gaurdian angel.

AEM WMI controller(hopefully I can buy this seperately) Mostly due to the electrical failure trigger it has. Also linked to gaurdian angel.

DO components(tank, pump, filter, solonoid, nozzle)

And I will make my own custom PTFE ss hose lines.

Now just gotta choose my shoot point. I do have the early 06 cold pipe that uses the straight coupler to TB, so I do have plenty area to drill and tap into that if I wanted to go pre-tb.

[shaneski]

Originally Posted by Ds_06_Speed6 Ok, after a fuck ton of reading and comparing kits and shit I think I know what Ill be doing. AEM Failsafe flow guage linked to a Gaurdian angel. AEM WMI controller(hopefully I can buy this seperately) Mostly due to the electrical failure trigger it has. Also linked to gaurdian angel. DO components(tank, pump, filter, solonoid, nozzle) And I will make my own custom PTFE ss hose lines. Now just gotta choose my shoot point. I do have the early 06 cold pipe that uses the straight coupler to TB, so I do have plenty area to drill and tap into that if I wanted to go pre-tb.

Justin also sells AEM meth kits and failsafes etc, have you emailed him asking what he can put togethe for you? https://www.freektune.com/collections/all

[Jeff23spl]

I love methanol injection for few years now but basic systems are a bit weak and could fail more than adding E85 directly in the tank. It can be better with add-ons or more expensive kits...
When using for cooling and just a bit more aggressive, running out of meth is a matter of driving slower and the knock sensor will do the job. In this case, any kits are ok.

A basic kit with just a boost switch will work. Injecting a constant flow above xxx psi would be easier to tune and troubleshoot. It would also be limited... If water mixed juice is used, there would be a limit of jet size too. (Water is the part that cool the charge and methanol increase octane) The jet needs to be no larger than what the engine can accept at the starting point but that flow won’t increase where more could be used.

An aem V2 is an easy one that seem to give the most features for the price, just add a solenoid and you are good to go for cooling.


When used with an aggressive tune for octane + fuelling it is another story. Running out of it can go ZZB really quick.
Then comes time for upgrades....but the question is: Should i spend a lot of money in monitoring a cheap and weak system or i would better make or get one at first that won’t fail ?

-Nylon tubes and quick connect fail, leak or disconnect after some time (Is it better to monitor leaks or getting ANL plumbing that won’t break?)

-Pumps are probably must of all, made at the same place and they put a logo sticker on it. The pressure is a matter of adjusting the release valve...(My 8 years old aem was adjusted to 100 psi but can reach 250psi and drop to about 150 with a 1000cc nozzle flowing.)

-Jets needs a check valves to works against engine vacuum: Aquamist and AEM have some built in, but others will have it separated. (The less volume you have between the injector and check valves, the better it is for manual gear box between shifts)

-Control signal. Most kits are proportional to boost with a map built in....It is easy to install and works ok when you need methanol for cooling the charge and increase octane. With Dizi and limited injector capacity, you may use it as a fuel adder. In that case, you need a trigger signal that follow fuel demand. Boost isn't proportional to fuel requirements…Using it for that, will have the same weakness of the boost switch activated system. Then you need a controller with a 0-5v signal to connect into the MAF, or, a more complex one that read a third signal like RPM or injectors IDC. This way you can have meth following some kind of real fuel demand like gas injectors.

-Tank: A large tank looks cool but will take more space and in case of failure, will poor a lot more fluid into the engine. I prefer to have the 1gallon and refill it more often. This way i can monitor the fluid level vs my driving habits. this let me know if something happen...Having it in the back can keep it cooler but make sure to bleed the system each time you run out of it. If it leaks, or spill while refilling in the trunk, it can make a mess…

-Solenoid: Needed! I dont think you would be able to install the tank above the pump but below the injection point. Because of that, fluid will flood the engine by gravity at rest. And if your check valve isn’t perfect, it may also flood under vaccuum....With a 5gallon tank it means an hydrolock for sure....There is some for low pressure side (between tank and pump) or some that can be put after the pump. Controllers with a dedicated output are nice but you can just install a pressure switch to open it too.

-Safety: Some controllers like the aem have interesting basic built in safety. It checks liquid level and trigger an output signal for a light (And/or a relay to disable EBCS) It also detect a short or open circuit at the pump for the same output...
With just that, you still don't know when a hose breaks, when injector blocks or when the pressure drop because the pump or filter get dirty. You can get the AEM fail safe sensor and controller to check flow. But if you read on it, the flow sensor doesn't like concentrated methanol content!!! A lot wrote about sensor failure. If you put a device that has more chances to fail than the system itself...it isn't very nice...I don’t know about aquamist flow sensor longevity with high methanol content...

The Snow DV50 seems to monitor all that + compare pressure against output to see if it leaks or if it is blocked. That would make it a perfect device... but a quick look at wiring diagram and I don’t see any wires intended to trigger a fault relay…..You would need to see the fault on the gage and release the throttle yourself…Not bad, but still dangerous if you don’t keep looking at it all the time. Their stage3 doesn’t seem to have a wire for this either…

For myself, i found a controller that monitor pump current above a trigger point. Pump current is proportional to flow or pressure but doesn't' require a separate moving sensor....I like that means of protection. Torqbyte controllers are probably not known here because it is a Canadian product. Curiously when looking at Snow performance stage4, it looks like the same as my. (They at least use the same plastic box….) I can connect the fault output to a relay to interrupt the EBCS and drop wastegate duty to 0% in case of failure. It reads a float, RPM, 0-5v maf and has a map provided with. It can trigger a second proportional pump if needed and/or pulse a solenoids on the other output to works like the Aquamist. It is a bit more complex to wire and work with but it gives a lot of options. I had it for fuelling on my old 3 and I re-used it on my 6 for cooling on boost until I upgrade turbo and bloc. Configuration and mapping is made with a software a bit like Split Second controllers.

IMO The kit I would get instead of adding and adding stuff if I would restart from 0 would the Aquamist HFS4. It has everything needed to be safe except ANL hoses. It map the output by reading injector IDC and boost.(proportional to fuel needs) It checks flow like the aem fail safe. It pulse a solenoid to adjust flow while keeping pump at full speed. This way, you save the pump ramping up and down time VS other systems. Meth won’t continue to flow between shifts and won’t start late because of pump inertia. It comes with a separate display to install inside the cabin to see what is going on.


For nozzle install, it is easy to tap into the colt charge pipe close to the TB. Some spacers exist but it brings the nozzle a bit close to the TB. I would check if there isn’t interference when TB is fully opened. There was a member that tested and documented placement and got better results when it was plumbed on the cold pipe.


Since I’m going to need fuelling in a near futur, I look at the possibility to make it PI. Having 4 small nozzles taped into the oem IM runners instead of a large one. At first think, it would separate flow more equally and spray pattern for small jets would be better…..On the other hand, I read that smaller injectors and parts have more chances to block. It is also difficult to get 4 check valves opening at the same pressure and if you run just one check valve before the distribution manifold, you will get the siphon effect on all volume between check valve to injectors when shifting….
At the end, would it be better to get an aftermarket intake manifold that flow more equally and use a single injecting point with 1 or 2 nozzles?
The best is probably a PI gas injection system + a single meth nozzle for cooling but $$$...

[Thor Hammer]

@Jeff23spl; Awesome write up! Thank you for this.

[Solarsurge]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl The best is probably a PI gas injection system + a single meth nozzle for cooling but $$$...

That’s exactly what I did. And yes... $$$ lol



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ds_06_Speed6]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl I love methanol injection for few years now but basic systems are a bit weak and could fail more than adding E85 directly in the tank. But it can be better with add-ons or more expensive kits... When using for cooling and just a bit more aggressive, running out of meth is a matter of driving slower and the knock sensor will do the job. In this case, any kits are ok. A basic kit with just a boost switch will work. Injecting a constant flow above xxx psi would be easier to tune and troubleshoot. It would also be limited... If water mixed juice is used, there would be a limit of jet size too. (Water is the part that cool the charge and methanol increase octane) The jet needs to be no larger than what the engine can accept at the starting point but that flow won’t increase where more could be used. An aem V2 is an easy one that seem to give the most features for the price, just add a solenoid and you are good to go for cooling. When used with an aggressive tune for octane + fuelling it is another story. Running out of it can go ZZB really quick. Then comes time for upgrades....but the question is: Should i spend a lot of money in monitoring a cheap and weak system or i would better make or get one at first that won’t fail ? -Nylon tubes and quick connect fail, leak or disconnect after some time (Is it better to monitor leaks or getting ANL plumbing that won’t break?) -Pumps are probably must of all, made at the same place and they put a logo sticker on it. The pressure is a matter of adjusting the release valve...(My 8 years old aem was adjusted to 100 psi but can reach 250psi and drop to about 150 with a 1000cc nozzle flowing.) -Jets needs a check valves to works against engine vacuum: Aquamist and AEM have some built in, but others will have it separated. (The less volume you have between the injector and check valves, the better it is for manual gear box between shifts) -Control signal. Most kits are proportional to boost with a map built in....It is easy to install and works ok when you need methanol for cooling the charge and increase octane. With Dizi and limited injector capacity, you may want to use it as a fuel adder too. In that case, you need a trigger signal that follow fuel demand. Boost isn't proportional to fuel requirements…Using it for that will have the same weakness of the boost switch activated basic system. Then you need a controller with a 0-5v signal to connect into the MAF or a more complex one that read a third signal like RPM or injectors IDC. This way you can have meth following some kind of real fuel demand like gas injectors. -Tank: A large tank looks cool but will take more space and in case of failure will poor a lot more fluid into the engine. I prefer to have the 1gallon and refill it more often. This way i can monitor the fluid level vs my driving habits to know if something happen...Having it in the back is can keep it cooler but make sure to bleed the system each time you run out of it. If it leaks or you spill it while refilling in the trunk can also make a mess… -Solenoid: Needed! I dont think you would be able to install the tank above the pump but below the injection point. Because of that, fluid will flood the engine by gravity at rest. And if your check valve isn’t perfect, it may also flood under vaccuum....With a 5gallon tank it means an hydrolock for sure....There is some for low pressure side (between tank and pump) or some that can be put after the pump. Controllers with a dedicated output are nice but you can just install a pressure switch to open it too. -Safety: Some controllers like the aem have interesting basic built in safety. It checks liquid level and trigger an output signal for a light (And/or a relay to disable EBCS) It also detect a short or open circuit at the pump for the same output... With just that, you still don't know when a hose breaks, when injector blocks or when the pressure drop because the pump or filter get dirty. You can get the AEM fail safe sensor and controller to check flow. But if you read on it, the flow sensor doesn't like concentrated methanol content!!! A lot wrote about sensor failure. If you put a device that has more chances to fail than the system itself...it isn't very nice...I don’t know about aquamist flow sensor longevity with high methanol content... The Snow DV50 seems to monitor all that + compare pressure against output to see if it leaks or if it is blocked. That would make it a perfect device but a quick look at wiring diagram and I don’t see any wires intended to trigger a fault relay…..You would need to see the fault on the gage and release the throttle yourself…Not bad, but still dangerous if you don’t keep looking at it all the time. Their stage3 doesn’t seem to have a wire for this either… For myself, i found a controller that monitor pump current above a trigger point. Pump current is proportional to flow or pressure but doesn't' require a separate moving sensor....I like that means of protection. Torqbyte controllers are probably not known here because it is a Canadian product. Curiously when looking at Snow performance stage4, it look like the same as my. (They at least use the same plastic box….) I can connect the fault output to a relay to interrupt the EBCS and drop wastegate duty to 0% in case of failure. It reads a float, RPM, 0-5v maf and has a map provided with. It can trigger a second proportional pump if needed and/or pulse a solenoids on the other output to works like the Aquamist. It is a bit more complex to wire and work with but it gives a lot of options. I had it for fuelling on my old 3 and I re-used it on my 6 for cooling on boost until I upgrade turbo and bloc. Configuration and mapping is made with a software a bit like Split Second controllers. IMO The kit I would get instead of adding and adding stuff if I would restart from 0 would the Aquamist HFS4. It has everything needed to be safe except ANL hoses. It map the output by reading injector IDC and boost.(proportional to fuel needs) It checks flow like the aem fail safe. It pulse a solenoid to adjust flow while keeping pump at full speed. This way, you save the pump ramping up and down time VS other systems. Meth won’t continue to flow between shifts and won’t start late because of pump inertia. It comes with a separate display to install inside the cabin to see what is going on. For nozzle install, it is easy to tap into the colt charge pipe close to the TB. Some spacers exist but it brings the nozzle a bit close to the TB. I would check if there isn’t interferences when TB is fully opened. There was a member that tested and documented placement and got better results when it was plumbed on the cold pipe. Since I’m going to need fuelling in a near futur, I look at the possibility to make it PI. Having 4 small nozzles taped into the oem IM runners instead of a large one. At first think, it would separate flow more equally and spray pattern for small jets would be better…..On the other hand, I read that smaller injectors and parts have more chances to block. It is also difficult to get 4 check valves opening at the same pressure and if you run just one check valve before the distribution manifold, you will get the siphon effect on all volume between check valve to injectors when shifting…. At the end, would it be better to get an aftermarket intake manifold that flow more equally and use a single injecting point with 1 or 2 nozzles? The best is probably a PI gas injection system + a single meth nozzle for cooling but $$$...

Good shit. Gave me more to think about. Ill be contacting Auquamist today, see how much it would be just for their HSF4 controller and wiring. Everything else I can piece together.

[Jeff23spl]

You can check the online store to get an idea.

Btw since i'm an old electronic tech, i give more credit to stuff with more wires and options but i didn't personally tried the aquamist. It looks nice on paper but someone else may preffer something a bit more simple with just a start and stop point like AEM and devils own controllers. I don't want to push a brand more than another but just expose some point of thinking

You may ask @torquemaniac too, he runs an Aquamist with a PI setup.

[Ds_06_Speed6]

Ok, just might go with the full aquamist system as the controller and wiring is roughly half the cost, then Ill just make my own PTFE/AN lines.

[Jeff23spl]

The guy that did the nozzle placement test is Dale, i retrieved it.
P17-18
Dale Gribble's MS6

[Ds_06_Speed6]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl The guy that did the nozzle placement test is Dale, i retrieved it. P17-18 Dale Gribble's MS6

Bummer he sold his car, hes not that far from me.