Boost leak? or tune?

[xorphanx]

So... I've installed my HPFP internals, thought they were causing an issue, but it turned out not to be the case. The car is pretty much bone stock besides swaybars, motormoutns, and hpfp internals, so nothing has been done to intake and exhaust yet.

I have an accessport in which I took a log in 4th gear from 3k RPM's to as high as I could on the freeways around here, I think it topped off around 5500-6k with the pedal completely depressed but clearly to the logs it doesn't show 74-76% throttle position.

Someone has told me it could be the tune (running the poop accessport stage 0 map due to insufficient mods), or a boost leak somewhere. Would it be beneficial for me to get an actual tune done through freektune or another reputable tuning company to run and see if it is indeed the tune that's causing the problem??

My biggest dilemma is that I don't have an air compressor nor know where I can use one in hopes to locate said boost leak/loose clamp/etc.

Or should I just wait until I install my inlet and intake, hopefully assure all the clamps are connected fully and then get a tune made?

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by xorphanx So... I've installed my HPFP internals, thought they were causing an issue, but it turned out not to be the case. The car is pretty much bone stock besides swaybars, motormoutns, and hpfp internals, so nothing has been done to intake and exhaust yet. I have an accessport in which I took a log in 4th gear from 3k RPM's to as high as I could on the freeways around here, I think it topped off around 5500-6k with the pedal completely depressed but clearly to the logs it doesn't show 74-76% throttle position. Someone has told me it could be the tune (running the poop accessport stage 0 map due to insufficient mods), or a boost leak somewhere. Would it be beneficial for me to get an actual tune done through freektune or another reputable tuning company to run and see if it is indeed the tune that's causing the problem?? My biggest dilemma is that I don't have an air compressor nor know where I can use one in hopes to locate said boost leak/loose clamp/etc. Or should I just wait until I install my inlet and intake, hopefully assure all the clamps are connected fully and then get a tune made?

Everything looks normal for a stock tune.

Throttle position will only go to around 75 which is maxed

[Gr8Speed]

+1 to that ^ pay this man to fix your "problem" and go fast.

[xorphanx]

Originally Posted by mituc At this point I don't think your HPFP is an issue. It's either the tune or something mechanical with the car. It accelerates slowly, especially in the mid range the throttle is not fully open (fully open means around 76-77%) even if you push the acceleration pedal to the floor (as far as we can understand), and it runs super rich with low boost. So again: boost leak?

This was from another thread, I just started one here to stop spamming a guys issue with my own :| trying to be courteous...

I haven't figured out how to tell if it's running rich/lean or mainly what to look for in these datalogs. People say provide them and I make it happen...

[mituc]

Originally Posted by xorphanx I haven't figured out how to tell if it's running rich/lean or mainly what to look for in these datalogs. People say provide them and I make it happen...

By looking at a log you can tell if a car is running rich or lean either based on knowledge and common sense (like, the AFRs should never go below like 10.5 or 10.3 at high RPM and high boost on a stock tune, or like 11.4-11.2 on an OTS tune) or by comparing the values you see in the data log with the AFR targets from the tune at that RPM/load/boost point.

In your case the AFRs are deep into the 9s and under no normal circumstances this should happen no matter the tune, gas type (91 or 93/94), not to say at those boost levels which are less than what the stock tune would target

[xorphanx]

That makes sense. I guess not ever seeing datalogs would be a key player in this. Well I got my intake/inlet scheduled for the 24th as a delivery date, we'll see how things go during the install if I can find any possible leaks in that time

[xorphanx]

So i'm pretty convinced by now that I've checked all my fittings. The only thing I haven't done is a legit boost leak test due to not having the required tools for it.

Someone did suggest taking apart my HPFP again and looking at the flap inside controlled by the cam? (i'm assuming). But i'm pretty sure that it's running some rich due to upgraded internals but not upgraded intake (which will happen this weekend).

so ONCE I get that done i'll be buying a tune from FREEKTUNE to make sure it's all good with air and fuel, and that it has a proper tune on it. If problems still persist there, then i'll start going into looking at the mechanical aspects of things.... As easy as that internals install is, I would rather not do it twice lol.

[WAMBUSHHHH!]

A quick test you can do to help figure out if you have a leak and consequently where that leak may be located is to look at your LTFTs. If you have a leak, your LTFTs will be wonky ie. pretty high...positive will indicate vacuum leak and negative would indicate a leak somewhere between the throttle body and turbo.

[xorphanx]

Originally Posted by WAMBUSHHHH! A quick test you can do to help figure out if you have a leak and consequently where that leak may be located is to look at your LTFTs. If you have a leak, your LTFTs will be wonky ie. pretty high...positive will indicate vacuum leak and negative would indicate a leak somewhere between the throttle body and turbo.

according to my accessport datalog, my LTFT is 0's during entire acceleration, it only starts adjusting once I start letting off the gas. I have noticed while driving though, my AFR has been running at 14.6-14.9 while cruising and once I get on it, it starts getting around 9-10's... which apparently isn't normal for an almost stock vehicle (i only say almost stock because the only things i've done is swaybars, motormounts, and hpfp internals).

[frothy]

Originally Posted by xorphanx according to my accessport datalog, my LTFT is 0's during entire acceleration, it only starts adjusting once I start letting off the gas. I have noticed while driving though, my AFR has been running at 14.6-14.9 while cruising and once I get on it, it starts getting around 9-10's... which apparently isn't normal for an almost stock vehicle (i only say almost stock because the only things i've done is swaybars, motormounts, and hpfp internals).

Fuel trims will always be 0 (-.16 for Gen1s) when going WOT... You look at your AFR when going WOT.
ECU will correct your fuel trims when going part throttle, so you look at your STFT/LTFT...

[xorphanx]

Originally Posted by frothy Fuel trims will always be 0 (-.16 for Gen1s) when going WOT... You look at your AFR when going WOT. ECU will correct your fuel trims when going part throttle, so you look at your STFT/LTFT...

So that would be more prevalent with normal driving rather than WOT? Since it will always read 0 while going WOT

"LTFT's show adjustments being done to your fueling. + means it's adding fuel, and - means it's pulling fuel. + or - 10 is within normal parameters, anything higher means you have a boost leak or pulling unmetered air."


I just found this which seems super informational, I will be monitoring my LTFT on my drive home today to see how the levels look.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by xorphanx Someone did suggest taking apart my HPFP again and looking at the flap inside controlled by the cam? (i'm assuming). But i'm pretty sure that it's running some rich due to upgraded internals but not upgraded intake (which will happen this weekend).

This is totally incorrect. Having upgraded HPFP internals will not lead to richer AFRs.

If for you is easier to pull the pump than making a boost leak test then the problem is bigger than we thought,

[xorphanx]

Originally Posted by mituc This is totally incorrect. Having upgraded HPFP internals will not lead to richer AFRs. If for you is easier to pull the pump than making a boost leak test then the problem is bigger than we thought,

I just need to get to home depot to buy some pvc caps to block the hoses and get ahold of an air compressor.. Sometimes I wish I had a garage... >.>

[robbspeed]

Originally Posted by xorphanx So that would be more prevalent with normal driving rather than WOT? Since it will always read 0 while going WOT "LTFT's show adjustments being done to your fueling. + means it's adding fuel, and - means it's pulling fuel. + or - 10 is within normal parameters, anything higher means you have a boost leak or pulling unmetered air." I just found this which seems super informational, I will be monitoring my LTFT on my drive home today to see how the levels look.

Hpfp internals will not make you run rich. You dont need a massive air compressor for the boost leak test, you need a $10 air pump that plugs into your cigarette lighter. They sell them at advance auto.

How-To NATOR A Boost Leak Tester for $15

[frothy]

Originally Posted by xorphanx So that would be more prevalent with normal driving rather than WOT? Since it will always read 0 while going WOT "LTFT's show adjustments being done to your fueling. + means it's adding fuel, and - means it's pulling fuel. + or - 10 is within normal parameters, anything higher means you have a boost leak or pulling unmetered air." I just found this which seems super informational, I will be monitoring my LTFT on my drive home today to see how the levels look.

Correct.

For casual driving and idling, monitor fuel trims. When going WOT, monitor AFR.

Keep in mind, there's also a learning period for long term fuel trims. So if you load a new map or disconnect the battery to reset the ECU, your LTFTs will be "0" for a period...


Read through this to get a basic understanding of some of the parameters:
Ultimate Guide to Parameter Monitoring?

Another good link:
Understanding Fuel Trims & Using Them To Detect Leaks

[xorphanx]

Screw it i'm leaving work early to go get the stuff and do the boost leak test today. I'll report any findings I have.

[xorphanx]

Originally Posted by frothy Correct. For casual driving and idling, monitor fuel trims. When going WOT, monitor AFR. Keep in mind, there's also a learning period for long term fuel trims. So if you load a new map or disconnect the battery to reset the ECU, your LTFTs will be "0" for a period... Read through this to get a basic understanding of some of the parameters: Ultimate Guide to Parameter Monitoring? Another good link: Understanding Fuel Trims & Using Them To Detect Leaks

Good to know! now let me hit you with a super noob question........ i mean super noob... i'm about to truffle shuffle on this bitch...

When i disconnect my battery and reset the ECU do i need to remap my ECU? as in reflash the tune? The only time I flashed it was after I did the HPFP internals because i got my AP the same day.

[SCSI15]

Originally Posted by xorphanx Good to know! now let me hit you with a super noob question........ i mean super noob... i'm about to truffle shuffle on this bitch... When i disconnect my battery and reset the ECU do i need to remap my ECU? as in reflash the tune? The only time I flashed it was after I did the HPFP internals because i got my AP the same day.

No you do not.


Sent from my doucing phone.

[frothy]

Originally Posted by xorphanx When i disconnect my battery and reset the ECU do i need to remap my ECU?

No.

[xorphanx]

Haha I told you it was gonna be hella dumb!! But always good to clarify, Never messed with an ECU before so i'd rather be safe than sorry.

[xorphanx]

So i did my boost leak test, came up with nothing. took it to a shop down the road, they said that there's a broken transmission bearing, and possibly need a new clutch. Would I still be able to factor this under my dealership warranty even after changing my motormounts?

[xorphanx]

UPDATE :

during shop inspection we found the following.....
noise from transmission input shaft bearing, possible broken bearing?
dirty MAF sensor which I haven't touched since i bought the car.
Smoke test on the intake manifold, smoke coming from EGR valve assembly.

no boost leak...

My question now is when I replaced my TMM, could that have possibly done damage to the bearing??? I don't see how this is possible, but you never know....

Luckily everything is still covered under warranty from the dealership and I have an appointment scheduled for Dec 2nd. By replacing the motormounts/swaybars would that have any impact on why one of these items may not be covered??

[robbspeed]

Originally Posted by xorphanx UPDATE : during shop inspection we found the following..... noise from transmission input shaft bearing, possible broken bearing? dirty MAF sensor which I haven't touched since i bought the car. Smoke test on the intake manifold, smoke coming from EGR valve assembly. no boost leak... My question now is when I replaced my TMM, could that have possibly done damage to the bearing??? I don't see how this is possible, but you never know.... Luckily everything is still covered under warranty from the dealership and I have an appointment scheduled for Dec 2nd. By replacing the motormounts/swaybars would that have any impact on why one of these items may not be covered??

During the boost leak test the system should only be pressurized up to the throttle plate. So you needed the smoke test to find the egr problem. So could you have a boost leak where your egr is leaking or is this not possible? I'm not familiar enough with the egr system. If smoke made its way out why wouldn't boost?

[xorphanx]

Originally Posted by robbspeed During the boost leak test the system should only be pressurized up to the throttle plate. So you needed the smoke test to find the egr problem. So could you have a boost leak where your egr is leaking or is this not possible? I'm not familiar enough with the egr system. If smoke made its way out why wouldn't boost?

I agree that's a completely viable option. I will be taking it to the dealership as it is now to find any leaks, then replacing my intake along with getting a correct tune. I have noticed this morning my LTFT while driving has been going from -0.76 - +2.26. I'll post another map once I can get out of stop and go traffic.

According to the FT searching I've done between -10 to +10 are "normal ranges" so i'm not too worried about it. I know i'm not expecting it now to read 0 unless i'm WOT. This whole ordeal has been quite the learning process for sure.

[xorphanx]

Corksport Stage II SRI has just arrived with the rear stability bar and hood hydraulic lifts! Time to get to work! Unfortunately the SRI will have to wait for install once ma car gets back from the dealership on Dec 2nd to locate any leaks in the boost system... (hopefully not to find any and it just needing the more airflow and tune done!) Christmas is comin early! AND IT'S NOT EVEN BLACK FRIDAY DEALS YET!!!

AND GEN2 airboxes will be coming back soon!

[robbspeed]

Good luck. Hope everything works out.

[spl]

I know that this is a little late, but I will post it here anyways. This is a set of vdynos depicting the difference between a boost leak and a tune pulling boost.



All of these runs were done on the same map.
First, notice how the blue and green pulls make very similar hp/tq, but the red line is WAY down on the graph.
Second, The blue boost line is exactly 2 psi below the green pull for the whole run, while the red line does not follow the boost curve, instead it plateued at 19.8 psi and held it.
Third, this is a 10gph meth map (I'm not sure if a gas map would do the same thing) but the red line goes really rich near redline with no knock. I assume this is because the MAF is reading way more airflow than what actually made it into the engine and it was unable to correct it. The blue line goes rich because I started to have pretty heavy KR in those sections due to winter gas (I swapped to a less aggressive map now, which alleviated the KR).

The boost leak I had was pretty massive, the cold pipe going onto the throttle body was VERY loose. I removed it without undoing the clamp.
Another thing I noticed in these datalogs, if you have a boost leak you will command the same wgdc but get less boost, if it's the tune pulling boost you will be getting less wgdc than before (which makes sense).

[LSReborn]

Any updates xorphanx?

[xorphanx]

Oh yeah, lots has been done up until now. When i went to swap out the Stage II SRI, the stock TIP ring clamp wasn't even tight... the thing slid right off.. After installing the new intake I had no issue, I also did get the CS airbox but I haven't noticed much of a difference. Once we get out of the winter months i'll be going to a CAI, also looking into the CS turbo which i'll install my bar + harness, and ebcs with along with another retune.