"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...

[Mfinlay04]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness They didn't have to change anything for me however, I'll ask what needs to be done. You probably need to post up your S/N and all the details of your SB before a correct answer can be given. I need to know the year and model of the NA vehicle this came from. This was the response I got... "Need year of na6. If it's analog then he needs a new SB"

Just got off the phone with the receptionist and she said that they guys that work on the Speed's aren't in the office right now. She asked if the car started with the bypass plug in, which it does, and she said then more than likely it is something wrong with the unit itself. Hopefully we can resolve this pretty quickly and I can start tuning away on my car!

[jhershorin]

Add some fuel in the lower rpm's. Pull a degree of timing out where the knock is occuring. Get your RPMs to about 11.5 ( leaner if you want but this is my way of saying im not liable for anything lol ) and then play with timing. You can also play with fuel pressure a little. Put some -5's in teh FP table over 3000rpm and over like 3v

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by jhershorin Add some fuel in the lower rpm's. Pull a degree of timing out where the knock is occuring. Get your RPMs to about 11.5 ( leaner if you want but this is my way of saying im not liable for anything lol ) and then play with timing. You can also play with fuel pressure a little. Put some -5's in teh FP table over 3000rpm and over like 3v

Where should I pull the timing from exactly. I know the rpm range but should I only pull the timing above 3v or thoughout the entire table

[cbusby]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 Where should I pull the timing from exactly. I know the rpm range but should I only pull the timing above 3v or thoughout the entire table

Most people seem to use everything above 3.1. That's what I've been doing.

[jhershorin]

It depends. If you are tuning rpm vs map v or if you are tuning rpm vs tps. For the guys that don't have flashes you MUST tune MAF table, ignition table, and fuel psi table using RPM vs MAP v...

Now - lets say you odnt hvae flahses. You will use RPM vs Map V so to pull timing where its knocking do the rpm range and 3.6v = 13.4psi--------- 3.8v = 14.7psi--------- 4.0v = 16.1psi ---------4.1v = 17.5psi

I would recommend pulling over 3.6v or over 3.8v since that will cover all of your boost pressures over stock ugh...i miss tuning people...but at the same time i dont lol

[cbusby]

Originally Posted by jhershorin It depends. If you are tuning rpm vs map v or if you are tuning rpm vs tps. For the guys that don't have flashes you MUST tune MAF table, ignition table, and fuel psi table using RPM vs MAP v...

So say I don't have the flashes and I've been tuning using RPM vs. TPSv but have been having some decent success... Did I just get lucky, is this going to cause issues for me down the road?

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by cbusby So say I don't have the flashes and I've been tuning using RPM vs. TPSv but have been having some decent success... Did I just get lucky, is this going to cause issues for me down the road?

If you are tuning with RPM vs TPS and don't have the flashes then you will usually get inconsistent results. Since the tps voltage without a flash changes all the time, you have to make sure you have correct values in the right cells.

Whereas, RPM vs MAP or MAF. You'll always be consistent in where the SB reads the tables to modify the signals.

I know this from experience trying to do RPM vs TPS. It's not fun. Switched to RPM vs MAP and it was much better

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 So here are my pulls. FIrst thing I notice is the knock between 4000 and 5700 rpm. Should that be my first priority. Any advice and direction would be appreciated

I'd pull about 1 degree of timing from 4500-5500rpm


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[cbusby]

Originally Posted by the_caruch If you are tuning with RPM vs TPS and don't have the flashes then you will usually get inconsistent results. Since the tps voltage without a flash changes all the time, you have to make sure you have correct values in the right cells. Whereas, RPM vs MAP or MAF. You'll always be consistent in where the SB reads the tables to modify the signals. I know this from experience trying to do RPM vs TPS. It's not fun. Switched to RPM vs MAP and it was much better

Okay cool, thanks. I'll give MAP a shot. Just need to figure out where in the MAP table to make my changes now compared to TPS.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by cbusby Okay cool, thanks. I'll give MAP a shot. Just need to figure out where in the MAP table to make my changes now compared to TPS.

MAP = boost/vacuum. When you are going WOT your boost will always be more than 5psi. So the SB will read from the last column at 5.0

You'll be able to see the yellow tracer in the SB software, it should go all the way to the right.

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by the_caruch MAP = boost/vacuum. When you are going WOT your boost will always be more than 5psi. So the SB will read from the last column at 5.0 You'll be able to see the yellow tracer in the SB software, it should go all the way to the right.

Not quite. The 0-5.0 on top of the table (use MAF for fuel and make the axis RPM vs MAP V) is volts. I will post a table later that shows what each voltage = psi. Here are a few:

3.6v = 13.4psi
3.8v = 14.7psi
4.0v = 16.1psi
4.1v = 17.5psi

For the guys without flashes you NEED to be tuning MAF (AFR/FUEL), Timing (IGN), and Fuel PSI (entering negative numbers will increase fuel pressure - if you don't have an upgraded HPFP enter like -5 above 3.2v and 3000rpms) ---> and these three tables MUST be tuned using RPM vs MAPv. Truth is those three tables should ALWAYS be rpm vs mapv but with the flahses you can get away with rpm vs tps.

If the guys who are trying to figure all this out need help you can email me at hershorin@gmail.com. I'd be more than happy to give you some tips or a head start. I don't charge much lol just some chipotle spending money. If you don't know who I am shoot Rich or a few others a PM and they'll let you know its "safe" lol. I am not really etuning for people anymore but I'll give you guys a hand.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by jhershorin Not quite. The 0-5.0 on top of the table (use MAF for fuel and make the axis RPM vs MAP V) is volts. I will post a table later that shows what each voltage = psi. Here are a few: 3.6v = 13.4psi 3.8v = 14.7psi 4.0v = 16.1psi 4.1v = 17.5psi For the guys without flashes you NEED to be tuning MAF (AFR/FUEL), Timing (IGN), and Fuel PSI (entering negative numbers will increase fuel pressure - if you don't have an upgraded HPFP enter like -5 above 3.2v and 3000rpms) ---> and these three tables MUST be tuned using RPM vs MAPv. Truth is those three tables should ALWAYS be rpm vs mapv but with the flahses you can get away with rpm vs tps. If the guys who are trying to figure all this out need help you can email me at hershorin@gmail.com. I'd be more than happy to give you some tips or a head start. I don't charge much lol just some chipotle spending money. If you don't know who I am shoot Rich or a few others a PM and they'll let you know its "safe" lol. I am not really etuning for people anymore but I'll give you guys a hand.

Thanks for the correction Jake!


and yes, jake knows his shit and is a great help.

[RichieRichness]

Jake knows


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[Joellc2434]

Man I feel like a total tard. Every time I thing that I am beginning to understand any of this someone comes along and drops a bomb on me. So yes Jake I will probably take you up on that offer of some help. But first a question:

Richie told me to pull some timing between 4500 and 5500 RPM. What MAPv should I be starting this at? I guess this is the part where I am most confused. You mentioned earlier that it should be anything over 3.6v. By the way I do have the flashes. And buying a couple burritos would be totally worth getting a handle on all of this. I actually tried reading some books on tuning but it seemed really out of date and didn't seem to relate much to working with the standback so I really do need help. Thanks guys

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 Man I feel like a total tard. Every time I thing that I am beginning to understand any of this someone comes along and drops a bomb on me. So yes Jake I will probably take you up on that offer of some help. But first a question: Richie told me to pull some timing between 4500 and 5500 RPM. What MAPv should I be starting this at? I guess this is the part where I am most confused. You mentioned earlier that it should be anything over 3.6v. By the way I do have the flashes. And buying a couple burritos would be totally worth getting a handle on all of this. I actually tried reading some books on tuning but it seemed really out of date and didn't seem to relate much to working with the standback so I really do need help. Thanks guys

Now that you are switching to RPM vs MAPv you will want to use a chart that I'll post up later tonight if someone emails me to remind me. Basically the voltage at the top of the tables when using the axis as RPM vs MAPv represent voltages from the MAP sensor. I listed a few earlier. So - lets say you are trying to pull timing because you are knocking between 4500 and 5500 rpms. These events happen when you are full throttle so you are at full boost by then. Lets say you are running 17psi. You would want to pull ignition everywhere over 17psi (4.0v = 16.1 and 4.1 is just over 17psi) so I would start at 4.0 or even 3.8 to be safe and pull everything over that. Basically you find the cell on the table that represents where you are in the graph. If you are at 17psi and 4500rpms you pull hte timing or fuel from there and maybe a little even around that cell.

Don't worry about fully understanding things. I still learn new things daily Tuning takes practice. Its fun to do when you aren't doing it as a job lol. That was only fun for a while and then it gets old for lots of reasons but thats for another day. Anyways - if you need help shoot me an email.

[jhershorin]

Here is the table. Thanks for the reminder wankular.

[wankular]

thanks, Jake. Is this with or without the flashes?

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by wankular thanks, Jake. Is this with or without the flashes?

Flashes wont affect this. This is what each voltage represents in terms of Map Pressure (PSI). The table has to be set to RPMvsMAPv for this to be relevant. I set MAF, Timing, and Fuel PSI to RPMvsMAPv for every tune I do for people.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness I stab. I'm starting to realize that it's impossible to hit these boost targets without an initial boost spike....I spent 2+ hours yesterday trying all different kinds of PID settings...see attached (I took a ton more samples...but this give you an idea. Kp=10, Ki=0.2, Kd=0 Attachment 27718 Kp=10, Ki=0.3, Kd=0 Attachment 27719 Kp=16 Ki=0.2 Kd=75 Attachment 27720 Kp=20 Ki=0 Kd=0 Attachment 27721 Kp=20 Ki=0 Kd=125 Attachment 27722 Kp=25 Ki=0 Kd=25 Attachment 27723 Kp=27.5 Ki=0.3 Kd=10 Attachment 27724 Kp=30 Ki=0.3 Kd=0 Attachment 27725 Kp=30 Ki=0.325 Kd=100 Attachment 27726 That being said I settled on the following Kp = 30 Ki = 0.325 Kd = 75 Attachment 27716 Attachment 27715 I've noticed that Kp doesn't do shit except have a negative effect on Ki (therfore lowering the boost curve). I'd like some help moving forward to reduce spike but more importantly flatten out the boost curve. I feel like ive tried everything except for Caruch's idea to lower Ki while setting boost targets higher.

I started another thread in regards to my boost issues....I'd appreciate input from Caruch, Jake, etc...

Forge WGA Installed

[RichieRichness]

Picked up an AP last week...SB is for sale

[Mfinlay04]

So I finally got my standback back from CP-e and installed on the car. Took it out for drive and noticed that my DH is only reading 12.9 for boost/vac. Even though my tables are set for 15-17.5 psi on the top end.

After looking around a little bit I noticed my boost clip is currently set at 13.0psi which I'm assuming that is why I'm only seeing 12.9 on the DH and possibly boosting at or near target.

Question is, what do i set the boost clip at? I seems that most of the DH logs I've seen shown the boost levels in excess of 17-18 psi so the boost clip has to be t least that high or higher. Is there any downside from raising the boost clip or benefits from keeping it low?!?!

Planning grabing a few logs and throwing them up here and Having Sander help so I can get her tuned quickly.

Thanks in advance

Matt

[spnkr21]

Leave the boost clip at 13. It's what the ecu sees. The sb controls the boost and can't be read by the dh.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by Mfinlay04 So I finally got my standback back from CP-e and installed on the car. Took it out for drive and noticed that my DH is only reading 12.9 for boost/vac. Even though my tables are set for 15-17.5 psi on the top end. After looking around a little bit I noticed my boost clip is currently set at 13.0psi which I'm assuming that is why I'm only seeing 12.9 on the DH and possibly boosting at or near target. Question is, what do i set the boost clip at? I seems that most of the DH logs I've seen shown the boost levels in excess of 17-18 psi so the boost clip has to be t least that high or higher. Is there any downside from raising the boost clip or benefits from keeping it low?!?! Planning grabing a few logs and throwing them up here and Having Sander help so I can get her tuned quickly. Thanks in advance Matt

Before i had the cp-e flashes i set it at 4psi. Reason being, i didn't want the ECU to even attempt to limit my boost in the first couple of gears.

Now that i have the flashes i just set it at something high like 28 so my DH is at least mostly accurate.

[Mfinlay04]

So can I use map voltage on the dashhawk to determine the actual boost pressure or does the SB unit datalog actual boost pressure? In order words how can I tell if I'm having boost creep or boost spikes??

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by Mfinlay04 So can I use map voltage on the dashhawk to determine the actual boost pressure or does the SB unit datalog actual boost pressure? In order words how can I tell if I'm having boost creep or boost spikes??

the SB logs actual boost pressure (and target boost so you can see if you are overshooting, etc)

Besides air/fuel ratio being the exception, if you can modify a parameter via the SB software then you can't trust it to be accurate via the dashhawk.

but generally i find the DH to still be fine in showing what your actual boost is.

[Mfinlay04]

So, I installed the standback last night and drove around for about an hour but didn't take any logs just to make sure everything was cool plus I needed a power inverter since my laptop's battery last all of 5 mins unplugged.

So i pick up the inverter drive around to get the car all warm up and boost temps to normal range and decide to take a log. Start in 4th gear around 3k and have my wife start the logging and got to about 4k and the car stalls the CP-E program says it lost contact with the standback and now the car won't start... luckily I have my bypass plug with me and a 10mm socket. So i disconnect the battery swap the unit for the bypass and she starts right up. I swear CP-E has something against me and my speed...

Anyways I'm uploading what logs I did get so maybe something standout as to why it "lost connection" and would refuse to start afterward...

Ps. after getting home I plugged the standback into the computer and it now says standback unit detected WTF?!

Update** I tried to read the data from the standback unit and it was a no-go... So i rewrote, full write, the base tune Sander gave me twice and went downstairs and plugged the standback unit it and it fired right up. Almost as if the tune got wiped somehow when I was trying to log...

[the_caruch]

oh boy, the dreaded "lost contact" message.

what standback software version are you running? 2.6.0.5?

you can also give this software a try. i've used it and it works great

Mazda StandBack Tuner

[MattJackson86]

Yea unfortunately there is still not fix for the lost contact error. My software has helped some people, but for the most part it is a hardware noise related issue that only CP-E can fix.

[Mfinlay04]

Thanks guys, Well I went out with the wife tonight for a drive and got a few 4th gear pulls and one 3rd gear pull. With the boosted bumped up to 17.5 I'm getting some knock on the top end. Otherwise AFR looks safe idk what to look at...

Trying to get the dashhawk to connect to my laptop has been a challenge at times as well

Ps. Mod's are MS CAI no air straighter for now, and test pipe. Also running ITV22

[Mfinlay04]

Hey is another pull in 4th gear this morning. I ran this on my second map to see if it changed anything with the knock etc...

[Mfinlay04]

For the guys without flashes you NEED to be tuning MAF (AFR/FUEL), Timing (IGN), and Fuel PSI (entering negative numbers will increase fuel pressure - if you don't have an upgraded HPFP enter like -5 above 3.2v and 3000 rpm....


Wondering if this increase in the fuel pump pressure could cause premature wear on the stock pump. I'm on stock pump and 91k miles and the pressure on my dashhawk is still 1600-1700 Pei. Will changing this benefit me a lot?

[Mfinlay04]

So I played around last night and pulled some timing on the top end and used the MAF transfer function to try and get my LTFT under control some, as they were 10-13% before adjusting. I also cut the boost from 17.5 down to 16psi on this run. Now they are -3% - 4%. I have a WOT box with the Rev limiter set at 6k so the car will stop at 6k and I think that is the reason i got a little lean at 6k as the WOT box started to cut the fuel.

Today I switched all my tables to RPM vs MAP v and played around with some other things including changing the fuel PSI to -5 from 3.1volts and 3000 to red line and 5 volts. Making a trip up to LA today so I'm planning on resetting my ECU and tweaked the Transfer tables a little more to see if I can pin down the LTFT's


Let me know what you guys think and if you have any suggestions

[spnkr21]

Wotbox cuts timing not fuel.
It also only functions when the clutch is pushed in. It won't affect your tune at all.
I would pull a little more fuel up top. How are your bat's?

[Mfinlay04]

BATS suck balls with stock tmic... normally 30-40 degrees hotter than ambient. I changed the tables to rpm vs map v and changed a few things yesterday and did two datalogs but I'm at work today so I wont be able to upload them until tonight. Knock is down a lot now but still getting a little and have already pulled 4degree of timing. Wondering when the cutoff is for retarding timing vs lowering boost. I know e85 is frown on for the most part but I often wonder if 1 gallon added to a nearly full tank would reduce my knock some Idk...

[Mfinlay04]

So awhile back ago they came up with a theory that VVT advance under partial throttle was causing too high of dynamic compression thus blowing engines. With the AP and ATR you can change the VVT tables. With the SB, this is not possible however we could fight the VVT tables with retarding timing right?!?! Wonder if the CPU will adjust for this timing pull or not.

To test this out, I went through and pulled a ton of timing from 2.1 MAP v to 3.1 MAP v varying from -11 to -20 degree's of timing. Based on jhershorin table that he gave us that should pull timing between 1-10psi which seems to be the problem zones...

I'm gonna datalog with the and see what happens. One of the main reasons that I bought the SB was to protect my car from going boom. On this Piss water they give us in Cali I was getting knock on stock tune with just CAI. So I'm hoping to try and make the car more fun yet safe as well.

[Mfinlay04]

Okay so I quickly figured out the spark advance on the dh was in percentage not degree. So I lowered it to -3 degree of timing in the lower rom range and see if I can reduce kr. Ill datalog some partial throttle runs and post them up along with my wack ass -20 log for fun

[jhershorin]

Be very careful about pulling too much timing. You run too little timing and you will melt something. Not sure what you mean by spark advance being a percentage.

[Mfinlay04]

Originally Posted by jhershorin Be very careful about pulling too much timing. You run too little timing and you will melt something. Not sure what you mean by spark advance being a percentage.

How much is too much? I've pulled a max of 5 degree's on the top end. Have seen a little bit of KR while driving but my last few datalogs have been knock free.

Spark advance in the dashhawk is shown in percentage.

[jhershorin]

% of what?

as for how much is too much...pulling 20* down low would be too much.

[Mfinlay04]

Originally Posted by jhershorin % of what? as for how much is too much...pulling 20* down low would be too much.

yeah Pulling 20* was not very good or long term. I quickly figured this out and switched over to the second map until I could redo the timing tables.

Do you think that it will be beneficial for me to pull any timing down low? I know it will make the car "slower" at that MAP v and RPM but I'm looking for safety here.

I appreciate all your help Jhershorin, seems everyone else has jumped ship to Cobb.