"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...

[the_caruch]

More pressure will be a finer mist of fuel which decrease the time for atomization.

Only downside is that your DH logs will for fuel psi will be inaccurate. It will actually look like you are loosing pressure but it's the standback tricking the sensor. But that's ok, i dont even log fuel psi anymore with the DH since i got my pump.

That zip was empty? Maybe try uploading it again

[MattJackson86]

Ah yes, so it was. Try now.

I had my fuel psi changed a long while ago, but with my latest tune I left it off. For now I will leave it off and just get this current tune wrapped up. Then I can look at bumping the psi and adjusting my AFR accordingly.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 I have not touched the fuel psi table. Not sure if it is needed or not. I have heard both sides that it helped with power etc, and others who say not. Thoughts? Why change the psi?

Jake did my tune and the first thing he did was pull 7.5 from 3138 to 7000 rpm beginning at 2.93 volts. I don't know why but they guy is an expert at tuning these cars.

[jhershorin]

You have internals on your pump and injector seals. Go jack up the fuel pressure by putting -10 in the table from 3000rpms up and like 2.8volts and up. Its well worth doing

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Jake did my tune and the first thing he did was pull 7.5 from 3138 to 7000 rpm beginning at 2.93 volts. I don't know why but they guy is an expert at tuning these cars.

Jake is the man. He did something similar with my table as well.

Negative numbers increase pressure. The "higher" the negative the more pressure.

Attached is exactly how Jake did my fuel psi table. I made no other changes to your tune.

[MattJackson86]

So just to be clear, what benefits will I see from increased fuel pressure? Better atomization, yes. But what in turn would this help with?

[the_caruch]

I forget the details. Jake might be able to chime in. Or shoot him a quick PM

[charlesfist]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 So just to be clear, what benefits will I see from increased fuel pressure? Better atomization, yes. But what in turn would this help with?

I'm curious about this as well.
Because if you already have the upgraded fuel pump and are running pressures close to 1800 psi at WOT,
whats the need of raising the pressure even more, considering the fact that our pressure relief valve open between 1850 - 1875 psi.

[spnkr21]

I think dj found that 100psi adds 10hp and is linear. If you run more than 1850 you will eventually break your relief valve from cycling too many times. I haven't confirmed this yet but will soon.

[charlesfist]

^ you already know this (Hope its a quick fix for you with your new valve).

dougefresh_ blew his relief valve because his PTP pump was running too much pressure (1900-200 psi) from rpm's as low as 2000.

Let me find his post for reference.

Mah Big Turbo Build Redux

[the_caruch]

if he's the same guy I'm thinking about it's because he commanded high pressure with very low demand via the AP throughout the rpm band.

edit: ok looks like it isn't the same guy. but someone did blow their RV from commanding high pressure with low demand

my WOT fuel pressure is always reported to be above 1850 using modified fuel psi tables in the SB.

[MattJackson86]

What is everyones thoughts on my non smooth rpm line in those last graphs. Had that for a while and I can hear the car "popping" a little out the exhaust (assume its at same time). I originally thought it was spark blowout, but I am now running the BAS at 25%.

[the_caruch]

hmmm, i was thinking spark blowout too. and you double checked the gap recently?

[MattJackson86]

Replaced them 1 week ago. Brand new Denso 1 step colder plugs running at .034

.034 should be good considering I have the BAS. Kenne bell boost a spark

Ill post in the BAS thread and see what people think. I think I can contribute some of the Kr I am seeing to the rough RPM line. The points match up and would make sense.

[spnkr21]

Do you have upgraded injector seals?

[MattJackson86]

Yes

[MattJackson86]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help on my tunes. It will no longer be needed though as the SB has been removed from the car and I will be going AP once finances allow.

I will still be working on the MST software though.

[the_caruch]

aww man. did you just get to a breaking point with the SB shitting out when you were trying to log?

[RichieRichness]

I feel ya Matt. I'm gonna stick with the SB for now...it does what I need. I still want the flashes but its not a deal breaker yet.

Here are my logs after installing the CP-e TMIC and HKS SSQV2. Suggestions and comments please...
4-11-2011_4th_log1.GIF

4-11-2011_20110411_222826.csv

I changed my PID settings around because I was getting boost spikes of 20 psi...
Old settings
kp - 30
ki -3
kd - 150

New settings (as shown)
kp - 30
ki - 3
kd - 250

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by the_caruch aww man. did you just get to a breaking point with the SB shitting out when you were trying to log?

Basically yes. Just started to not trust that the SB was the right tuning solution for me. Didn't feel confident in my tune and with the inability to log there was not much I could do to correct issues. Its been a good run and it works well for 99.9% of people. For some though that are the unlucky few, its just not for us.

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Here are my logs after installing the CP-e TMIC and HKS SSQV2. Suggestions and comments please...

Don't forget, I don't think you can log spark advance with the DH as they are not the correct values. You need SB logs for this.

Otherwise it looks good. If it were me, I would try and straigten out the AFR line a tad more. Around 4250 its looks like it lowered a tad. 4500+ looks better between 11.5 & 12.0.

[the_caruch]

well that's understandable from the trouble you have had Matt.

Here are my logs after installing the CP-e TMIC and HKS SSQV2. Suggestions and comments please...

yea you could pull some fuel where it dips down.

also looks like you are squeaking by with just around 1600psi. might be on the verge of a fuel pump upgrade needed.

edit: you have lots of wastegate left in the mid range for more boost. but that will most likely kill your stock pump

Don't forget, I don't think you can log spark advance with the DH as they are not the correct values. You need SB logs for this.

yea you can see his SB log never gets above 10 degrees. but the DH shows a lot more

[RichieRichness]

I'll work on getting the afr smoothed out and might even bump my boost up to 18psi. My fuel pump has been a champ so far. This TMIC might put me over the edge.
As far as logging spark advance with the DH, I was only doing this to monitor KR events above 5700 rpm.


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[RichieRichness]

Caruch,

I'm considering trying your PID settings 30, .3, 0. However, If your running 0 Kd isn't that causing you problems with an initial boost spike? What do your boost targets look like?

[the_caruch]

I'm in the process of getting my boost to where i want it. I may add some Kd to soften things up though. I roll on the throttle. My boost doesn't spike at least in 3rd gear. but see some after a shift. which Kd would help. again, still a work in progress.

I hit full boost (still finding my upper range) at 3800rpm and taper to 18psi past 5k

Those PID values i use give me a stable boost curve that tapers nicely and smooth. only issue is that it doesn't match my target i have in the SB and underboosts. after screwing around with it for hours, i couldn't get it to remain stable (hey, i'm not an expert haha) so...i left it at the last stable one i had and i just command more via software. So far it's working out great and i could care less if i have to enter higher than targeted numbers to achieve the boost i want.

but let me tell you, raising boost to >20psi in the mid range, my car has never felt faster. by far the biggest change in power i've felt in a while

[RichieRichness]

I feel like my TMIC gave me another 1 or 2 psi to work with in mid range...which I will explore with as soon as my PID values are near perfect.

It seems that everytime I increase Kd I get more kr....which I feel is caused by the fluctuation in boost.

So maybe flattening out my boost curve by lowering Kd will prevent this fluctuation and random Kr events....

Here are my latest logs....as you can see there are random kr events.

4-12-2011_log1.GIF

4-12-2011_log2.GIF

4-12-2011_20110412_195254.csv

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness I feel like my TMIC gave me another 1 or 2 psi to work with in mid range...which I will explore with as soon as my PID values are near perfect. It seems that everytime I increase Kd I get more kr....which I feel is caused by the fluctuation in boost. So maybe flattening out my boost curve by lowering Kd will prevent this fluctuation and random Kr events....

Yes the TMIC should have given you a psi or 2 to work with.

Kd is good, but too much will throw your loop and start to oscillate (usually later on in the boost curve in higher rpms)

I'm fighting some KR myself, it happens roughly the same point every time. 4800rpm's. I might just be asking too much boost. My afr is 11.5 and boost is 19psi at that point. I'll try 18 and see what happens. I'm running stock timing.

I'm sure the stock manifold isn't helping much

EDIT: yea i see yours is oscillating in the top end. Are you rolling on the throttle or stabbing?

[Joellc2434]

I posting this here in hopes that someone is still looking at logs and giving suggestions for us noobs that are trying to tune our own standbacks. Both of these pulls are in 3rd gear. It is really hard for me to get a 4th gear pull out here while driving to work. I have my boost set to 16. I only have a cp-e CAI as far as engine mods go. I have also attached the standback charts that I had loaded when I go these logs. Any help would be appreciated.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by the_caruch yea i see yours is oscillating in the top end. Are you rolling on the throttle or stabbing?

I stab. I'm starting to realize that it's impossible to hit these boost targets without an initial boost spike....I spent 2+ hours yesterday trying all different kinds of PID settings...see attached (I took a ton more samples...but this give you an idea.

Kp=10, Ki=0.2, Kd=0
10.0.2.0_20110413_190627.csv

Kp=10, Ki=0.3, Kd=0
10.0.3.0_20110413_191519.csv

Kp=16 Ki=0.2 Kd=75
16.0.2.75_20110413_185450.csv

Kp=20 Ki=0 Kd=0
20.0.0_20110413_180657.csv

Kp=20 Ki=0 Kd=125
20.0.125_20110413_182221.csv

Kp=25 Ki=0 Kd=25
25.0.25_20110413_175749.csv

Kp=27.5 Ki=0.3 Kd=10
27.5.0.3.10_20110413_192849.csv

Kp=30 Ki=0.3 Kd=0
30.0.3.0_20110413_215659.csv

Kp=30 Ki=0.325 Kd=100
30.0.325.100_20110413_224108.csv


That being said I settled on the following
Kp = 30
Ki = 0.325
Kd = 75

30.0.325.75 boost chart.GIF
30.0.325.75 DH log.GIF

I've noticed that Kp doesn't do shit except have a negative effect on Ki (therfore lowering the boost curve). I'd like some help moving forward to reduce spike but more importantly flatten out the boost curve. I feel like ive tried everything except for Caruch's idea to lower Ki while setting boost targets higher.

[charlesfist]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 I posting this here in hopes that someone is still looking at logs and giving suggestions for us noobs that are trying to tune our own standbacks. Both of these pulls are in 3rd gear. It is really hard for me to get a 4th gear pull out here while driving to work. I have my boost set to 16. I only have a cp-e CAI as far as engine mods go. I have also attached the standback charts that I had loaded when I go these logs. Any help would be appreciated.

I'm no expert, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask you if you calibrated your MAF first (using MAF Transfer function), before fiddling around with other things, like timing etc.

What do your LTFT's look like.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 I posting this here in hopes that someone is still looking at logs and giving suggestions for us noobs that are trying to tune our own standbacks. Both of these pulls are in 3rd gear. It is really hard for me to get a 4th gear pull out here while driving to work. I have my boost set to 16. I only have a cp-e CAI as far as engine mods go. I have also attached the standback charts that I had loaded when I go these logs. Any help would be appreciated.

First off make sure your logging and taking screen shots in the most clear efficient way. Separate the data curves so it is easy to read. Use mine as an example.

Note: Even tho its not as accurate as the SB software, I like to use the SpkAdv option to monitor timing changes... if you see a dip in timing/SpkAdv that occures at the same time as a KR event you will know to pull timing however, lets not worrie about timing just yet.

Also, you don't need to log MAF or worrie about your MAF Transfer function yet as long as your LTFT's are in an acceptable range (as Charles pointed out). LTFT and STFT can indicate a boost leak issue. However, the Mazdaspeed CAI can also cause wacky fuel trims due to the lack of an air straightener. I had this problem with my CAI and was getting 15+ LTFT...so I modded my CAI into an SRI and haven't had a problem since. My LTFT's are never above 8.

PM me your email and I can send you a few base maps to try out....When I first started tuning the only mod I had was the MS CAI.

After that we can start playing with your PID settings and dial in whatever boost targets you'd like....I'd assume you don't have the CP-E flashes?

Also, order a set of step-colder spark plugs...you'll need them

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness I stab. I'm starting to realize that it's impossible to hit these boost targets without at boost spike....I spent 2+ hours yesterday trying all different kinds of PID settings...see attached zip file. Attachment 27717 That being said I settled on the following Kp = 30 Ki = 0.325 Kd = 75 Attachment 27716 Attachment 27715 I've noticed that Kp doesn't do shit except have a negative effect on Ki (therfore lowering the boost curve). I'd like some help moving forward to reduce spike but more importantly flatten out the boost curve. I feel like ive tried everything except for Caruch's idea to lower Ki while setting boost targets higher.

I feel ya. I literally spent hours trying to get targets higher without messing up my boost curve. I have probably 30+ WOT runs trying to figure it out.


I don't ever stab my throttle to go WOT. The short action of rolling on the throttle always produced a better boost curve with no spike.

Try it when you go for a run next time. take about 1 full second to have your foot go WOT.

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness First off make sure your logging and taking screen shots in the most clear efficient way. Separate the data curves so it is easy to read. Use mine as an example. Note: Even tho its not as accurate as the SB software, I like to use the SpkAdv option to monitor timing changes... if you see a dip in timing/SpkAdv that occures at the same time as a KR event you will know to pull timing however, lets not worrie about timing just yet. Also, you don't need to log MAF or worrie about your MAF Transfer function yet as long as your LTFT's are in an acceptable range (as Charles pointed out). LTFT and STFT can indicate a boost leak issue. However, the Mazdaspeed CAI can also cause wacky fuel trims due to the lack of an air straightener. I had this problem with my CAI and was getting 15+ LTFT...so I modded my CAI into an SRI and haven't had a problem since. My LTFT's are never above 8. PM me your email and I can send you a few base maps to try out....When I first started tuning the only mod I had was the MS CAI. After that we can start playing with your PID settings and dial in whatever boost targets you'd like....I'd assume you don't have the CP-E flashes? Also, order a set of step-colder spark plugs...you'll need them

Thanks. Like I said I am new to this and have just been trying to make my way through this thread to learn how to tune using the dashhawk and standback. I will take a couple more logs today and set them up a little better and I will PM them to you along with my email adress.

I have the cp-e intake so my LTFT's have been great actually. Way below 8's.

You are correct. I don't have the flashes. Wanted to order them but wife just got laid off. So plugs will be my next purchase. I look forward to getting some base maps from you to try out. Thanks again guys

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 Thanks. Like I said I am new to this and have just been trying to make my way through this thread to learn how to tune using the dashhawk and standback. I will take a couple more logs today and set them up a little better and I will PM them to you along with my email adress. I have the cp-e intake so my LTFT's have been great actually. Way below 8's. You are correct. I don't have the flashes. Wanted to order them but wife just got laid off. So plugs will be my next purchase. I look forward to getting some base maps from you to try out. Thanks again guys

Also, be aware you are on the secondary map screen (red). Unless you hook up the map switch, the SB defaults to the primary (green) tables

[Joellc2434]

The switch is hooked up and I have been logging while on the second map. I leave the primary zeroed so that I can always drive it in stock configuration if something isn't right with my tune. Or for if my wife is driving the car since she doesn't have the patience to let the car warm up properly

[MattJackson86]

Just a quick tip, if you want a stock map I would actually tune the car but make it safe. Leaving things as zero is not really the same as not have the SB plugged in. Just having the SB plugged in can (and does) change values due to the extra wiring and resistance and all that. So just do a safe map where boost is set to 15.5 psi (ramp it up slowly), AFR is set to 11.4 or something safe, timing can be pulled a few degrees, etc.

Just my opinion as that is what I did.

O, and warm ups are always needed. Tuned or not. Hopefully she doesn't get on it to much when its cold.

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 O, and warm ups are always needed. Tuned or not. Hopefully she doesn't get on it to much when its cold.

I completely agree. THats why I don't let Wifey drive the car too much. I know that I need to do a safe map and I am also working on that. So I did a couple of logs after some more adjustments but (please be kind) I realized that my boost clip was set to 13. NOt the 16 boost that I originally mentioned. SO after changing to 16 and going for a drive. I believe I hit what is the dreaded fuel cut and my afr is all over the place. SO I copied my map over to both primary and secondary but set primary boost to 13. Im am going to work and will do some logs but won't be able to post until late tonight. Hopefully you guys can give me some good feedback in the morning.

[MattJackson86]

I have boost clip set at 6psi btw.

[the_caruch]

Joellc2434 i think you are misunderstanding what the boost clip does.

Whatever number you type in there is the max psi the ECU will THINK it's seeing. Not what you are actually boosting. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

I had mine set to like 4 or 5psi when i didn't have the cp-e flashes. Now i have it at 25-26 so my dashhawk at least displays high numbers.

[MattJackson86]

The flashes allow you to raise the clip? Didn't know that...

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 The flashes allow you to raise the clip? Didn't know that...

Yea, as the ECU won't cut boost after 18psi like stock. So it doesn't matter what you set it as.