"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...

[pebenito]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness FUCK! CP-E needs to step up their game aka lower flash and SB pricing and add more features or go home!

I'd have to agree. Based on what I see on MSF, a lot of SB people are switching over to AP since it has a lot more capabilities, especially if they haven't gotten the flashes, since a used AP is about the same price as the FCF. Cp-e needs to step up, or no one is going to buy their tuning product, on this platform at least. The low demand (and correspondingly low resale prices) on the recent SB for-sale threads seem to confirm this observation.

Isn't the SB hardware the same on all the supported platforms, just a different harness/PNP and software? If so, losing one platform may not be sufficient motivation to do something (though the MS3s seem to be their biggest platforms, based on the number of products).

[RichieRichness]

I want to say there are some minor differences with the SB for different years when it comes to the NA 3. However, my SB has been used on a 2007 Mazda 3 and 2007 MS6.

[www.cp-e.com]

There are still alot of things the AP needs to get right for these cars - day to day we troubleshoot issues and keep tracing them back to people simply running the AP. NOT because we have the SB its just the nature of the tuning device (the AP that is).

There are fuel pressure issues, fueling consistency and a few others that are common to us.

The SB is solid, proven and it simply works - sometimes an adjustment of a tune is necessary for unique applications. But we do have full control of all aspects and with the flashes its a complete, stable solution.

The AP is great as its simple - but I feel its potential is overshadowed by it not being quite there yet.

[MattJackson86]

I agree with you to some extent. The SB is simple and when it works it produces great results. The AP has some cool features outside of tuning that the SB cant accomplish, but that's what you get when you flash the ECU.

If just comparing the ability for a solid tune that makes power, I think for the most part they are on par with each other. Maybe the SB is slightly better, maybe not. I don't know for sure.

The problem with the SB (and the reason a lot are switching away from it) is that sometimes the SB does not just work as intended. It all goes back to not being able to consistently log data, and thus not being able to accurately create a tune. Without logging, it doesn't matter how well the SB can tune a car. This issue has been known for way too long and I have yet to hear of a solid solution. Its not just one or two people either with this issue. It is many of us who have spent a lot of money on CP-E's tuning solutions and are finding we are not getting what we paid for. That coupled with the fact that SB development seems to be halted where as AP development is ongoing. This makes the AP a better choice for people looking for a tuning solution today. Not to mention the AP costs significantly less than the CP-E tuning package. The flashes alone are $400, only $50 less than a used AP costs and the flashes have a $0 resale.

Am I happy with the SB and what it can accomplish? Yes, when it works...

[RichieRichness]

I want to add to what Matt said about the significant difference in cost. I have the SB but no flashes. I want the flashes but can’t justify spending the extra $400+ when I could buy an AP. There is a significant price difference here between these two solutions...you'd expect the one that costs more to provide more.
I'm curious to see CP-E's sales history for the SB and flashes. I'm not trying to tell CP-E how to market a product or run their business but there are some warning signs that CP-E’s reputation is slipping. If you won't make money selling this product for less then find a cheaper way of making this product. The flashes are intellectual property (of Lou I’m guessing) so there is no manufacturing cost involved....my assumption = it’s paid for itself.

On a side note:
If we see stagnation and poor customer service then It doesn’t matter who was first to come up with an idea/product or its quality. We want innovation, consistency and great support.

[spnkr21]

I need higher idle and higher redline.
How is this NOT possible with flashes?

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by spnkr21 I need higher idle and higher redline. How is this NOT possible with flashes?

it is if the values are found. We are working out some stuff - seeing if we can find some more features.

[spnkr21]

Well I won't trade up. I'm too invested at this point. It has everything I need except idle+redline.

[Joellc2434]

So Ive been trying to read through this thread as I have just bought and installed my standback. It seems as though this thread has lost its original focus but I though that I would ask any way. In earlier posts it seemed that everyone was using knock retard as one of the parameters that they were monitoring in able to tune their timing. But all those that were using knock retard were using a dash hawk. I do not own a dash hawk and dont mind data logging with my laptop and Standback software. But how do I log KR with this software? Can I use other parameters to tell me how to adjust my timing? I know that I am really late to the game here but any help would e appreciated

[spnkr21]

Need a dashhawk

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 So Ive been trying to read through this thread as I have just bought and installed my standback. It seems as though this thread has lost its original focus but I though that I would ask any way. In earlier posts it seemed that everyone was using knock retard as one of the parameters that they were monitoring in able to tune their timing. But all those that were using knock retard were using a dash hawk. I do not own a dash hawk and dont mind data logging with my laptop and Standback software. But how do I log KR with this software? Can I use other parameters to tell me how to adjust my timing? I know that I am really late to the game here but any help would e appreciated

I have probably tuned more standbacks than most - just because of my past association with c-pe - you really SHOULD get a standback but if you have a solid tuning knowledge you can observe timing dropouts in the timing curve of the bbx / standback logs. I would strongly recommend finding a dashhawk though.

[MattJackson86]

Went to the dyno today to get my tune in line. Attached is the final DH log, SB log, SB Tune, and the dyno graph. Car feel much smoother and stronger. Started the day making 284 and ended around 304. Knock is very minimal and not often. Much better than before. Not pulling anywhere near as much timing, so that should look much better. AFR could be smoother but I was seeing some of the limitations of the SB (i.e. how the ECU switches its logic sometimes). Sometimes the AFR would just be much lower (11.2 ish) and then go back to normal at 11.8ish. Other times there were peaks etc into the 12's. The tune I settled on seemed to be the best balance of all. I do wonder if anything is missing or can be done better, but overall this tune is the best i have had in a long while. FYI my tune needs to be unzipped and is in MST format.

[MattJackson86]

Decided that I need to look into my PID setting again. Leave the rest of the tune as is but just get them back under control. I like how my boost is currently (little/no spike) but it oscillates too much. While minor, this is causing some loss in power.

Richie, you still on 30, .3, 150? When I tried those I spiked badly. Maybe I will try again and just start upping kd.

I attached that same dyno but uncorrected and no smoothing. Check out the oscillations around 4500 and from 5500 onwards. That matches the boost in the csv.

[the_caruch]

Do you have a graph of your boost showing the oscillation and the PID settings

[MattJackson86]

Attached an Excel file of the chart and data.

What else could cause the oscillations in that 2nd dyno chart?

[the_caruch]

an unstable PID loop causes oscillation. also too much Kd can cause it.

the boost is coming on way too fast (at least compared to your target). which means you need way less kP.

what are your current PID values that goes with that graph?

[MattJackson86]

29, .075, 250

[the_caruch]

So you are spooling too fast compared to your target, not coming close to the target, and oscillating.

I think you are targeting boost that is too low for the turbo to even hit at the lower RPM range. That's why you'll see the WGDC is practically 0 but still pushing 14-16psi, it physically can't spool any slower if the WG is fully open. So it's artificially making the boost curve look bad for the initial onset of boost. Try targeting 15 or 16 psi at around 3200rpm and continue up to your 18.5 target from there. I hope that makes sense

Try this for a test:

Kp 30 Ki 0 Kd 0

What i do for PID tuning is zero Ki and Kd out and adjust Kp until the initial slope of boost hits my target boost without any major overshoot. Then i will go and adjust Ki to bring up the entire curve. You may have to lower Kp again after raising Ki.

A little tip that i found out after messing with PID values for hours recently. If you find pid values that give you a pretty flat boost curve throughout the rpm range but is a little under/over target, just raise/lower the PSI commanded in the SB.

example:
Recently i got PID values that ran a pretty flat boost curve. but was only going about 17 psi. I was trying for 18 in the SB. So, i typed 19psi (where appropriate) in the SB and my actual boost curve went up 1psi and reached my target of 18psi.

My pid values that worked for me were: Kp 30 Ki .3 Kd 0

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by the_caruch So you are spooling too fast compared to your target, not coming close to the target, and oscillating. I think you are targeting boost that is too low for the turbo to even hit at the lower RPM range. That's why you'll see the WGDC is practically 0 but still pushing 14-16psi, it physically can't spool any slower if the WG is fully open. So it's artificially making the boost curve look bad for the initial onset of boost. Try targeting 15 or 16 psi at around 3200rpm and continue up to your 18.5 target from there. I hope that makes sense

Make sense. I kinda suspected that was my issue as my "low boost" map is set to 14 psi but I still hold 15-16psi. I am honestly not worried too much about the initial overshoot too much. My main concerns are not reaching/holding target and spiking too high. I have found that going WOT at 3000 may have perfect boost control, but WOT at 4500 will spike to 20+ psi. I would like to not spike over 21-22 psi.

Maybe changing my targets to match what the turbo is doing though will prevent the PID values from changing unnecessarily.

Originally Posted by the_caruch Try this for a test: Kp 30 Ki 0 Kd 0 What i do for PID tuning is zero Ki and Kd out and adjust Kp until the initial slope of boost hits my target boost without any major overshoot. Then i will go and adjust Ki to bring up the entire curve. You may have to lower Kp again after raising Ki.

Ok Ill try that and not touch Kd.

Originally Posted by the_caruch A little tip that i found out after messing with PID values for hours recently. If you find pid values that give you a pretty flat boost curve throughout the rpm range but is a little under/over target, just raise/lower the PSI commanded in the SB. example: Recently i got PID values that ran a pretty flat boost curve. but was only going about 17 psi. I was trying for 18 in the SB. So, i typed 19psi (where appropriate) in the SB and my actual boost curve went up 1psi and reached my target of 18psi.

That makes sense, but doesn't give me warm and fuzzies. The idea behind PID is that it should meet your targets, not have to adjust targets to bump up the actual

Originally Posted by the_caruch My pid values that worked for me were: Kp 30 Ki .3 Kd 0

0 Kd huh....interesting. How is your spike if you go WOT in the high RPMs?

[RichieRichness]

Matt...yes I am still running those same PID settings.

This is some great info caruch

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 Make sense. I kinda suspected that was my issue as my "low boost" map is set to 14 psi but I still hold 15-16psi. I am honestly not worried too much about the initial overshoot too much. My main concerns are not reaching/holding target and spiking too high. I have found that going WOT at 3000 may have perfect boost control, but WOT at 4500 will spike to 20+ psi. I would like to not spike over 21-22 psi. Maybe changing my targets to match what the turbo is doing though will prevent the PID values from changing unnecessarily. Ok Ill try that and not touch Kd. That makes sense, but doesn't give me warm and fuzzies. The idea behind PID is that it should meet your targets, not have to adjust targets to bump up the actual 0 Kd huh....interesting. How is your spike if you go WOT in the high RPMs?

I do/can spike if i go WOT after 4k. Which then could be dampened with some Kd.

It's tough to make it so you have a good boost curve going wot at 3k and then not spike going WOT at 4500 rpm with a quick spooling turbo.

If i do go WOT past 4k, i just roll on the throttle a little slower.

I know what you mean about have PID values so that it matches your target, but for the life of me i couldn't make a stable boost curve while trying to raise the boost past that point. So i ended up doing that and it worked great and it's something i can live with

EDIT: Here is a graph of when i had 18psi plugged into the SB and my PID values as i stated in my last post. See how it's slowly slopes to go under target. I just raise the SB boost accordingly in areas where it's below.

[MattJackson86]

And how much do you spike if going WOT past 4k? Is it super high? Ill start playing with the PID today and see how it goes. That graph looks great imo.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 And how much do you spike if going WOT past 4k? Is it super high? Ill start playing with the PID today and see how it goes. That graph looks great imo.

If i stab it at 4k or 4500 it'll go to 22psi then back to my target. Rolling into it will lessen that effect. I'm pretty sure to get the best of both worlds you just need to roll onto it a little slower in the higher RPM's going WOT

That is the point where i stopped tuning my boost for the day. So i'll pick back up soon once the weather cooperates.

[MattJackson86]

So I tried your PID settings (30, .3, 0). Going WOT at 3,000 seems good with just a minor spike. Rolling on seems ok too, but you really have to roll on slow. If you mash at around 4500 then it spikes anywhere from 22-27psi. What do I need to change to stop that spike somewhat, even if it means compromising other areas? The boost seems to hold a lot better. Need to get a SB log but looking at my boost gauge and its not moving like it used too.

[RichieRichness]

27 psi boost spike!?!?!

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 So I tried your PID settings (30, .3, 0). Going WOT at 3,000 seems good with just a minor spike. Rolling on seems ok too, but you really have to roll on slow. If you mash at around 4500 then it spikes anywhere from 22-27psi. What do I need to change to stop that spike somewhat, even if it means compromising other areas? The boost seems to hold a lot better. Need to get a SB log but looking at my boost gauge and its not moving like it used too.

27? jesus haha

you'll probably want to add some Kd in there. that will dampen everything. how much should you add? i'm not sure. try 10,20,30. See if it's doing anything to help. If not try bigger numbers, 100,150,200, etc.

Check to make sure it's not killing your 3000rpm WOT boost curve though. i would change Kd and then do a run at 3000 and then at 4500rpm run to see what it's affecting.

I'll be adding in some Kd myself to smooth things out

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness 27 psi boost spike!?!?!

Yup. It doesn't surprise me as when I tried your PID settings a while back I was spiking to 24. And they are the same PID settings I am now running but I have 0 Kd and you have 150. So When I start adding Kd I will go with the 200,250, 300 range and see what happens.

[MattJackson86]

At 30, .3, 300 right now and that has cured most of the major spike. Just getting the AFR/Kr in line again (I guess due to the extra boost). Will get some logs tomorrow but so far so good.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 At 30, .3, 300 right now and that has cured most of the major spike. Just getting the AFR/Kr in line again (I guess due to the extra boost). Will get some logs tomorrow but so far so good.

cool! any logs or graphs?

[MattJackson86]

No, the SB is having its usual issues of disconnecting in the middle of a log. Still trying to get the AFR and Kr back to normal. The new PID settings have introduced quite a bit of Kr due to my AFR changing.

[CosmicArkie]

Hey Matt & Caruch,

While we're waiting for your log, let me pose a question or two.
I've noticed that when rolling on the throttle gently I can get a nice
smooth AFR line on the DH. When I stab it at 3k or so and run to
redline, it looks like Matt's log in #692, all jagged like the Rockies.
What's up with that?

Secondly, Matt, I downloaded and looked at your tune. On the fuel
table you go from like -.8; -.9; -1.8; -4.3. And you have a very
small area of the table you actually tweek. I've been trying to gain
a nice smooth AFR log by starting sooner (to the left) and gradually
adding or subtracting. Am I screwed up in my thinking? I'm way
back in the woods and don't have access to a dyno.

Thanks,

Jim

[MattJackson86]

Jim,

Reagarding the log in 692, note the resolution. I made the AFR graph only span from 11-13 (or something like that) so it looks jagged. If I changed that to show 5-20 it would look a lot smoother. Just make sure that is not your problem first. I dont see why stabbing it at 3k or rolling on at 3k would make a huge difference. Maybe at first, but around 3500 or so I would expect it to have settled down again.

I only tweak the area where I am in WOT. The MAF chart is RPMvMAF so I dont start making changes until 3.8ish MAF volts. I do make changes sooner, but just so I gradually roll into the changes. You will notice that below 3.8 the changes are a lot smaller (cut in half) so that its a smooth transition. Making changes any further to the left will make changes even when not at WOT and I don't think that is desired. Anyone else have thoughts?

- Matt

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by CosmicArkie Hey Matt & Caruch, While we're waiting for your log, let me pose a question or two. I've noticed that when rolling on the throttle gently I can get a nice smooth AFR line on the DH. When I stab it at 3k or so and run to redline, it looks like Matt's log in #692, all jagged like the Rockies. What's up with that? Secondly, Matt, I downloaded and looked at your tune. On the fuel table you go from like -.8; -.9; -1.8; -4.3. And you have a very small area of the table you actually tweek. I've been trying to gain a nice smooth AFR log by starting sooner (to the left) and gradually adding or subtracting. Am I screwed up in my thinking? I'm way back in the woods and don't have access to a dyno. Thanks, Jim

Not sure why yours would be jagged if you stab it at 3k. Might be boost levels. Make sure your boost is smooth, as oscillating boost might cause up and down afr's because it's going back between more air/less air/more air/less air.

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 Jim, Reagarding the log in 692, note the resolution. I made the AFR graph only span from 11-13 (or something like that) so it looks jagged. If I changed that to show 5-20 it would look a lot smoother. Just make sure that is not your problem first. I dont see why stabbing it at 3k or rolling on at 3k would make a huge difference. Maybe at first, but around 3500 or so I would expect it to have settled down again. I only tweak the area where I am in WOT. The MAF chart is RPMvMAF so I dont start making changes until 3.8ish MAF volts. I do make changes sooner, but just so I gradually roll into the changes. You will notice that below 3.8 the changes are a lot smaller (cut in half) so that its a smooth transition. Making changes any further to the left will make changes even when not at WOT and I don't think that is desired. Anyone else have thoughts? - Matt

Yea i don't start making MAF and Boost changes until 4.0 TPS volts. That's ONLY because i have the cp-e flashes and my TPS volts stay constantly above that during WOT.

[MattJackson86]

So I am getting there slowly. Currently at 29, .3, 375. Not much has changed except I dont spike above 21 psi no matter when I stab the throttle, so that I am happy with. The AFR is looking much better and Knock is under control (kinda).

I always get knock so I dont freak when I see it. Especially when 1 run has knock and the next 2 are perfect. I have attached a DH log of the knock that shows occasionally. Should I be concerned? It is 3 degress of KR, so more than I like, but my AFR's drop appropriately and I am not running lean. So I think the knock sensor and the ecu are doing there job and Im not that worried.

Will finish up the remaining kr and afr tomorrow, but I am real close. Then we can chat about the PID once more and see if what I have is good or if I should change something. Still no SB logs. Damn thing disconnects and I am once again on the verge of throwing it out the window and going AP. CP-E, FIX THE LOGGING ISSUES!!!!

[the_caruch]

That looks like a great AFR line to me.

Knock that is there 1 run and not the next might be attributed to the injector seals.

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by the_caruch That looks like a great AFR line to me. Knock that is there 1 run and not the next might be attributed to the injector seals.

You mean my freshly installed CP-E injector seals?

Yea the knock is not present all the time which is always my main concern. 3 degrees is a lot to get no matter, but im hoping that as my AFR drops appropriately then either way there is not much to worry about. Took some more DH logs tonight. Will look at them in the morning and post them. Will try and get some SB logs tomorrow to show the boost too.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 You mean my freshly installed CP-E injector seals? Yea the knock is not present all the time which is always my main concern. 3 degrees is a lot to get no matter, but im hoping that as my AFR drops appropriately then either way there is not much to worry about. Took some more DH logs tonight. Will look at them in the morning and post them. Will try and get some SB logs tomorrow to show the boost too.

haha ok well then it's just normal knock

have you tried to add fuel to the whole afr line? maybe it's just too lean? kind of hard to tell from your last DH screenshot

[RichieRichness]

Matt,

3 degrees of KR at WOT is not a normal event....

I'm thinking Caruch's approach to PID tuning will work better if you start with your SB zeroed out (start fresh). Getting your boost/PID's set before the tune might be a better strategy. Then work on adjusting boost/fuel/afr values...adjusting timing should be the last step to gaining power and quell KR (unless your getting huge amounts of KR then pull a generic amount of timing).

Your afr looks good now however, your getting lots of KR from 4000 - 6000 rpm which means these AFR values will change depending on how much KR you get (because KR causes timing to drop).

I think its very easy to fuck up your tune with PID changes...this is why I say do PID first and timing last.

Do you follow my logic?

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Matt, 3 degrees of KR at WOT is not a normal event.... I'm thinking Caruch's approach to PID tuning will work better if you start with your SB zeroed out (start fresh). Getting your boost/PID's set before the tune might be a better strategy. Then work on adjusting boost/fuel/afr values...adjusting timing should be the last step to gaining power and quell KR (unless your getting huge amounts of KR then pull a generic amount of timing). Your afr looks good now however, your getting lots of KR from 4000 - 6000 rpm which means these AFR values will change depending on how much KR you get (because KR causes timing to drop). I think its very easy to fuck up your tune with PID changes...this is why I say do PID first and timing last. Do you follow my logic?

From what i remember Matt's tune already had timing pulled.

That seems like pretty good logic.

The way i tune is i get my boost levels straightened out/stable and up to where i want them to be. Then straighten AFR. Finally adjust timing. (which will slightly change AFR's too )

Matt, can you post your current tune? The last tune i looked at didn't have any fuel psi adjustments. I could modify that table for you if you want so you get more pressure. It may help things. Definitely not all of the knock but it's worth a try.

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness 3 degrees of KR at WOT is not a normal event

I agree, but I only get knock here and there. I think with my latest tune its loooking better and more consistent. Also, yes you probably should tune boost/PID, AFR, then timing. I was just hoping that the boost would not mess things up too badly, and I seem to be close.

Originally Posted by the_caruch From what i remember Matt's tune already had timing pulled.

I do, just in a few spots and just a degree or two.

Attached are 2 DH logs from last night and the latest tune. Couple more tweaks but I am reeling it in slowly.

I have not touched the fuel psi table. Not sure if it is needed or not. I have heard both sides that it helped with power etc, and others who say not. Thoughts? Why change the psi?