HOW TO: TOP MOUNT TURBO SET UP!!

[BobtailedSnail]

I have a question for DougieFresh...about how much did this BT upgrade cost you?, ima college student and have been wanting to do this with my MS6 for a year, and I jus wanted a price range if your not comfortable saying how much you actually paid.

[hedgehog7]

wow, even doing the install outside. clearly you don't mess around!

[doubleflusher]

According to google, this is a boost creep...

[djuosnteisn]

Boost variation like that can be caused by a ton of things man... like VVT, VE of the motor, change in BATs, etc etc.


Boost is the resistance of putting air in the motor... so changes on both the front or back of the motor will affect instantaneous boost values.

Until you put like 5psi spring in the wg, and see exactly what the boost builds to at RL, you won't know what the creep value is.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Boost variation like that can be caused by a ton of things man... like VVT, VE of the motor, change in BATs, etc etc. Boost is the resistance of putting air in the motor... so changes on both the front or back of the motor will affect instantaneous boost values. Until you put like 5psi spring in the wg, and see exactly what the boost builds to at RL, you won't know what the creep value is.

Okay, I just always see it hit the same psi, even when temps have fluctuated 50F since the install.

I don't think it's that big a deal anyways... I'm not going to fight the ewg off to pop a 5psi spring in to find out. I don't think it's necessary. Boost increases at a constant enough rate that I should just be able to dial in low wgdc early on, and have them decsend with increasing rpm. Even if I knew the value, it would still happen, and I'd have to tune around it. I just think a 44mm may be a better option for this set up. Primarily if you want to run a bcs fs for meth. I could just pop in a very light spring, say 8psi and see what boost I make, and then know my w/m kit would cut to that in case of failure. I"m not taking that fucker off again anytime soon. You and Joel should swap out his for a 5psi spring, and post results, lol. You both have garages . Off to my parking lot to deal w/ mani... car should be somewhat cool by now.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ Okay, I just always see it hit the same psi, even when temps have fluctuated 50F since the install.

This tells me it's definitely not creep then. If it were, lower temps would result in higher boost, and hotter temps would result in less creep.

Your fine man. And 38mm single gate is fine IMO.

[superskaterxes]

38mm is still more then enough for this motor. when u start to go too big you really will have a problem controlling boost because you cant actuate the opening and closing of the EWG fine enough to get a good boost response.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn This tells me it's definitely not creep then. If it were, lower temps would result in higher boost, and hotter temps would result in less creep. Your fine man. And 38mm single gate is fine IMO.

Cool, thanks man.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes 38mm is still more then enough for this motor. when u start to go too big you really will have a problem controlling boost because you cant actuate the opening and closing of the EWG fine enough to get a good boost response.

That's what I was thinking to myself after, and it makes sense. Thanks. I'm about to pull mani but I gotta to double check how to rig up the 3-port, LOL. I'm 99% sure the Y-splitter goes to the bottom port, and that runs to venturi and mani, and the top port goes to the CC, but I had to come in and double check. Took a bit of time as I had oil INSIDE the large wire harness plugs!! So, I was cleaning that up for a bit. Gonna get some paper towels and q-tips to clean it out some more before I plug her back up. The shop towels are too thick to get in there good. Mani was on really tight hercules...

EDIT: The plumming is correct. Back to visitor parking I go, LOL

[irishking03]

Great Write UP

[steedspeed]

You could try using a die grinder to open the ports in the passages that vent the exhaust. Just take out 1/8 or so and it will grab more of the gas for the EWG to vent.

[jmhinkle]

Yeah, I haven't seen anything close to creep, besides the locals, with my 38mm. Flows more than enough IMHO.

BTW, since I took my screamer off for Dustin to fab more and put it back on, I have no more flappy flutter sound. Guess it was just the angle it was at to the maxi-pad.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by steedspeed You could try using a die grinder to open the ports in the passages that vent the exhaust. Just take out 1/8 or so and it will grab more of the gas for the EWG to vent.

I don't have a die grinder, and I work on my car out in visitor parking like a chump. That's good advice for the guys w/ garages + tools though.

Originally Posted by jmhinkle Yeah, I haven't seen anything close to creep, besides the locals, with my 38mm. Flows more than enough IMHO. BTW, since I took my screamer off for Dustin to fab more and put it back on, I have no more flappy flutter sound. Guess it was just the angle it was at to the maxi-pad.

Get rid of the pad... and I hope Dustin mad 2 this time so he can use the 2nd as a future clone!! lol

[jmhinkle]

I can't get rid of the pad. My PTO spews too much fluid. Mazda won't fix so I just top it off regularly. I just think of it as character like Harley owners do.

[djuosnteisn]

I honestly don't think creep is even slightly an issue. No grinding necessary.

[dougefresh_]

Before this thread gets too lengthy, I just wanted to say I've addressed the 1 mechanical problem that I've had since the install... excessive crankcase pressure (blowing my dipstick out). I blew air thru the breather on the valve cover w/ the oil cap off, and no restriction there (thanks Riggs). So, I went with Silver Demon's crazy set up:



NOW, he no longer recircs the breather to the intake as show in the above diagram, as he saw zero improvement over just running the venturi set up. So I'm not gonna bother either... just rocking the same breather filter on the valve cover.

So, I finally got the damn venturi all rigged up and now I'm just waiting on the welder. I took a bunch of pics, but IDK how much help they'll be. It's not that complicated, but it's a pita as my OCC is by the horn bracket, and it was tough getting a "T" fitting off of it. I may do a little write up later. I also changed my stock PCV valve. I took the black pvc box off as detached the coolant line right there as it kept getting in my fucking way. Took about an hour taking the mani off taking my time and getting to that. THEN I wasted over an hour trying to get this F'ing black plastic clip that holds the stock pcv valve to the black box thing. Luckily, I didn't break it (but I came damn close!).

So with my OCC mounted to the horn bracket, I added a 3" piece of hose to the bottom port of the OCC, then the T fitting. Bottom line off "T" goes under the car towards the exhaust, awaiting the welder. The other hose off the "T" goes to the intake mani, w/ a Jegs check valve in between there.

Here's a short vid.... oh, I also put a SURE intake mani spacer in while I was ripping my hands to shreds, lol:

YouTube - ‪M4H01673‬‏

YouTube - ‪M4H01673‬‏

^This is redundant to my BT build thread, but figured I'd put it in here as it's the only mechanical issue I've had, and that's how I addressed it. I just need the slash pipe welded to the DP, and put my other Jegs Check valve after that, attach the hose, and I'm done!

[MSP611]

this is the best write up ever and going to be very useful when i get to mine hopefully when i get back... about the pressure relief, im kind of confused... is it tht u tapped the valve cover with the filter and theres too much pressure in the crankcase becuz of added boost, thts y it blows the dip stick? please explain if u can a lil bit of a noob on the crankcase pressure subject. other then tht what kinda BCS r u runnin? did u go EBCS or manual?

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by MSP611 this is the best write up ever and going to be very useful when i get to mine hopefully when i get back... about the pressure relief, im kind of confused... is it tht u tapped the valve cover with the filter and theres too much pressure in the crankcase becuz of added boost, thts y it blows the dip stick? please explain if u can a lil bit of a noob on the crankcase pressure subject. other then tht what kinda BCS r u runnin? did u go EBCS or manual?

Thanks man, I'm glad you like it . My intake is aluminum so I couldn't recirc the breather back to the intake. That wouldn't help anyways though... it's from pushing so much air and the stock pcv is not sufficient to get the pressure TFO! lol I didn't tap the valve cover... where that little filter is where your breather tube is now. You just cut off most of it and keep the fitting, and add that little filter. Basically all the MS6's that go BT (and some MS3s) blow the dipstick out because of excessive CC pressure. SuperSkater drilled out six 1/4" holes in his valve cover by the breather.... and his dipstick doesn't pop out. I decided to make life much more difficult and run a venturi set up, lol:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...-set-up-83614/

EDIT: I'm just running a 16psi spring combo, but that runs 20-21 psi by redline. I picked up an MBC, but I think I'm gonna hook my Perrin ebcs back up, and just run low ass wgdc around 3-4K to bump boost to 22psi, then have wdgc descend as rpms increase (because boost is currently increasing as rpms increase). Goal is a flat 22 psi from 3.5 or 4K to redline. I need to upgrade my map sensor to a 3-bar and upgrade my fmic as well. All in due time.

[djuosnteisn]

I never had dip stick issues.


I'm not saying that upgrading the PCV isn't a good idea, I think it's an excellent idea. I'm just saying that going Top Mount isn't necessarily going to make that start happening.

Jmhinkle has been blowing out his dip stick since he mildly bolted k04. He's always had CC pressure problems.



So just wanted to make sure that was clear. It's definitely a good idea to upgrade the breather setup, but not 100% necessary. If you have dip stick issues, you could simply put a hold-down spring like hinkle does, and Whoosh used to do back in the day.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I never had dip stick issues. I'm not saying that upgrading the PCV isn't a good idea, I think it's an excellent idea. I'm just saying that going Top Mount isn't necessarily going to make that start happening. Jmhinkle has been blowing out his dip stick since he mildly bolted k04. He's always had CC pressure problems. So just wanted to make sure that was clear. It's definitely a good idea to upgrade the breather setup, but not 100% necessary. If you have dip stick issues, you could simply put a hold-down spring like hinkle does, and Whoosh used to do back in the day.

for the first time ever i completely disagree with you here. that spring is a bandaid at best and your only HURTING the problem not just avoiding it.

by not letting the gases properly vent your pushing oil out of places it desperately needs to be. were also talking like 5+ psi in the CC which is insanely bad. i would run no dipstick before i ever put a spring on that thing. all you need is that moroso CV and your set.

[MSP611]

u jst bought a moroso PCV as an upgrade? do is jst bolt right up???

QUOTE=superskaterxes;899773]for the first time ever i completely disagree with you here. that spring is a bandaid at best and your only HURTING the problem not just avoiding it.

by not letting the gases properly vent your pushing oil out of places it desperately needs to be. were also talking like 5+ psi in the CC which is insanely bad. i would run no dipstick before i ever put a spring on that thing. all you need is that moroso CV and your set.[/QUOTE]

[jmhinkle]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes for the first time ever i completely disagree with you here. that spring is a bandaid at best and your only HURTING the problem not just avoiding it. by not letting the gases properly vent your pushing oil out of places it desperately needs to be. were also talking like 5+ psi in the CC which is insanely bad. i would run no dipstick before i ever put a spring on that thing. all you need is that moroso CV and your set.

I'll completely disagree with part of this. You will have less pressure in your OCC with an OEM PCV than a Moroso check valve. The Moroso absolutely does not close. It always bleeds some pressure through it. SD showed it in his test, Douge's does it and the one I got does it. I just installed that POS on my car after buying into that evacuation thread BS. A simple test with your mouth shows the PCV is a true check valve and the Moroso isn't. Your set up is way different than the rest because you managed to get one of those PCV block off plates and do something different though so it can't be compared to the rest. Is your set up better? Quite possibly because I really don't like the stock one and yours seems to work. I have to believe that any pressure I get in the CC comes from standard turbo motor blowby not thru the PCV. Do I have more than others? Seems like some motors are that way. Whoosh had it, I do, Douge does. I could do it on the K04 when it was maxed and the new turbo did it no problem. I think 20 psi was my magical number for dipstick ejection.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle I'll completely disagree with part of this. You will have less pressure in your OCC with an OEM PCV than a Moroso check valve. The Moroso absolutely does not close. It always bleeds some pressure through it. SD showed it in his test, Douge's does it and the one I got does it. I just installed that POS on my car after buying into that evacuation thread BS. A simple test with your mouth shows the PCV is a true check valve and the Moroso isn't. Your set up is way different than the rest because you managed to get one of those PCV block off plates and do something different though so it can't be compared to the rest. Is your set up better? Quite possibly because I really don't like the stock one and yours seems to work. I have to believe that any pressure I get in the CC comes from standard turbo motor blowby not thru the PCV. Do I have more than others? Seems like some motors are that way. Whoosh had it, I do, Douge does. I could do it on the K04 when it was maxed and the new turbo did it no problem. I think 20 psi was my magical number for dipstick ejection.

how could u claim the moroso doesent close? its tested to 100psi and its entire purpose is to seal off and hold back any pressure lol.

all i know is that before putting the CV into my system i was blowing my DS everytime i went WOT, after i added it it hasent happened even 1 time.

[dougefresh_]

If you go top mount, you'll blow your dipstick right through your mudda fuckin hood!! Nah, it has nothing to do w/ top mount at all, but BT in general. But, not everyone has the issue like you mentioned. However, I've read that you're missing out on some ponies due to excessive CC pressure and it's not good for the rings, and good to get the excessive pressure TFO, lol. I won't pretend I know exactly what's going on, because I don't, but I figured I may as well be a stickler and address the issue anyways. Skates' method is far simpler and free!

[djuosnteisn]

That's true on any motor to reduce pumping losses and aid oil control. Subarus come from the factory with a very similar setup as what you "upgrading" to. Our cars should have come that way too, haha. But mazda cheaped out on the price of a check valve.

[BrianZX10R]

awesome dougefresh, looks healthy, sounds mean. dustin u are doing some amazing work

[djuosnteisn]

Thanks amigo.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Thanks amigo.

^This

[djuosnteisn]

Hahaha, the main point i wanted to get across is that not everyone will have a dip stick problem.


I was running 27 psi on my BW at sea level in AZ, and my dip stick has never popped out. My OCC is using 2 pcv valves and that's it. Valve cover has just a filter on it.


I'm simply trying to avoid the association that "going BT, esp top mount, will make your dip stick pop out", cause that's entirely wrong. Some cars (BT or not even) may have crank case pressure issues. More boost certainly will affect it.


My car was perfectly happy with both BT setups i ran. Nonetheless, on the new motor, i'll be changing it up some.

[Dano]

Fwiw

I have two PCV between cc and OCC and no DS issues with 22.5 psi.

[jmhinkle]

Anthony, if you read SD's thread, his Moroso had a constant leak that allowed a consistent pressure in his OCC, but he claimed it was better than the OEM pcv's. Doug and I bought the Moroso and found out you can blow through them from both sides just like SD showed, but it was more than I expected. The difference is that he claimed the OEM PCV leaked more. Once I pulled mine out, it was obvious that MY OEM PCV does seal completely under boost. Your system is way different than stock since you are running that block off plate and it all vents through a modified valve cover. Is that when you stopped launching the dipstick?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle Anthony, if you read SD's thread, his Moroso had a constant leak that allowed a consistent pressure in his OCC, but he claimed it was better than the OEM pcv's. Doug and I bought the Moroso and found out you can blow through them from both sides just like SD showed, but it was more than I expected. The difference is that he claimed the OEM PCV leaked more. Once I pulled mine out, it was obvious that MY OEM PCV does seal completely under boost. Your system is way different than stock since you are running that block off plate and it all vents through a modified valve cover. Is that when you stopped launching the dipstick?

i only stopped blowing the dipstick when i added the CV. that and only that.

im gona pressure test my CV and see what kinda PSI it can hold. it says its rated for 100 psi so why would it leak? maby u guys got bad ones? i remember blowing through mine a buncha times to make sure i had it the right direction but average lunch capacity only allows for about 2psi.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes average lunch capacity only allows for about 2psi.

Unless your Lenny... then is 2 psizzas.

[triplejumper18]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Unless your Lenny... then is 2 manatees.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle Anthony, if you read SD's thread, his Moroso had a constant leak that allowed a consistent pressure in his OCC, but he claimed it was better than the OEM pcv's. Doug and I bought the Moroso and found out you can blow through them from both sides just like SD showed, but it was more than I expected. The difference is that he claimed the OEM PCV leaked more. Once I pulled mine out, it was obvious that MY OEM PCV does seal completely under boost. Your system is way different than stock since you are running that block off plate and it all vents through a modified valve cover. Is that when you stopped launching the dipstick?

HAhahaha... I never once mentioned that the moroso CV bleeds pressure... The fucking shit ass write up fucking COBB shoved out is the one that bleeds boost (the NAPA pcv valve). The ONLY time I ever saw a positive number on the gauge with the Moroso valve was in between shifts, and it only done it once, I could not repeat that symptom, and the needle only slightly bounced above zero. However, I can always achieve a slight amount of vacuum at WOT with my set up. So, do what you like, I don't care, but do not spread the wrong information about something you have never tested first hand. All I am trying to do is help a person that is willing to try a different approach to a problem.

[doubleflusher]

Which itty bitty Odyssey battery do you have Doug?

[SilverDemon]

This is quote from the evac thread, first round of testing with the Napa PCV.

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Well for what it's worth the testing is done. I went out and bought the specific PCV that cobb recommends for my test, I wanted to make sure that everything was correct before any testing was done. I think you will find the results a little surprising..... Test #1: Catch can installed per Cobb (no exhaust venturi at this point) When the intake manifold was at 10 - 12 inches of vacuum I saw about 10 inches on the catch can. Cruising in 5th at 60 mph about 3,000 rpm. This is where it gets a little strange, when the car goes under boost the pressure in the can went to 5 psi. Not having a very easy way to measure the actual pressure in the crank case I wonder if any of that pressure is bleeding by the factory pcv valve. This leads me to wonder if an actual check valve in place of the Napa PCV would prove to be more of a safety measure. Let me point out that the dipstick did not come out . Test #2: Catch can installed per Cobb, this time the exhaust venturi is tied to the can. Again I saw about 10 inches when the intake manifold was between 10 - 12 inches of vacuum, cruising in 5th at 60 mph 3,000 rpm. Under boost there is still pressure inside the can, but no where near as much as before. I saw about 0.5 - 1.5 psi in the can, this was on a long pull under boost, when I saw the 5 psi it was just a quick run under boost since it kind of freaked me out to see pressure in the can like that. So what does this all mean? What I think is going on is when the car is under boost and the venturi hooked to the catch can, the venturi cannot generate enough of a vacuum effect to overcome all the pressure that is somehow entering into the can, although in my opinion it helps a great deal, and is an economical way to achieve a close to a neutral state in the catch can. Right now I will leave the venturi hooked up the way it is and monitor everything for a while to see if anything funny is going on that I did not notice on these tests. But I will stand behind what I first thought, either a belt driven or a boost activated electric pump will be the way to go to achieve a vacuum under boost.

Round two testing with the CV.

Originally Posted by SilverDemon The Moroso check valve came in the mail today. I had to rush and get it installed and do the testing tonight since the rest of the week will be rain and in the 40's (Damn Ohio weather!!) Something I learned on the first round of testing is the PCV valves only have a max flow at about 10 - 12 inches of vacuum, more than that and the PCV shuts off most of the flow, and when the vacuum drops quickly (opening the throttle plate) below the 10 - 12" mark the flow shuts down as well. Having learned that, if I drive at 3,000rpm and keeping the vacuum at 10 -12" I will see max vacuum on the crank case. Test 1: I replaced the Cobb PCV suggested set up with the Moroso check valve, then, to keep everything the same, I plugged off the venturi going to the exhaust. Went out for a drive, I saw what I expected, crankcase vacuum in the catch can, actually a 1 : 1 ratio with my prosport boost/vac gauge, if the manifold was at 20 inches the can was at 20 inches, and so on. Now on to what we have been waiting on........When I hit boost I saw NO pressure in the can. Remember, when I had the Napa PCV hooked up and the venturi was disconnected I saw about 5 psi on the catch can, to me this means the Napa part was not designed to hold back boost pressure or, it still stays open a little bit because that is the way it was designed ???? Don't know for sure, just reporting what I saw. After seeing this happen leads me to believe that there is no pressure bleeding into the crankcase by the rings (no blow by). I kind of already knew that I did not have a blow by issue, no smoke, and I did compression test earlier this summer 180 - 185 across all 4 cylinders. Test 2: Same set up before, but with the venturi hooked to the can. Vacuum stayed the same, 1:1 with the intake manifold. I took the car into boost, the gauge went to zero, and then barley pulled off the zero mark. My gauge is not sensitive enough to accurately read low vacuum like this. I am going to guess at around .1 - .5 inches of vacuum, and at one time I saw a little pressure, but I am not going to take that too serious because I was in between shifts and it could have been a little needle bounce. All in all I am satisfied with the results. 1) I was able to achieve a slight vacuum in the catch can while under boost. 2) I now know for sure that there is no pressure in the catch can, and crank case. 3) The catch can is virtually "catching" everything all the time. My suggestions is to at least do a catch can. Use a check valve on the intake side instead of a PCV valve. Add a place to measure the pressure/vacuum on the system, if you don't know how the system is working, how do you know if any head way was made in achieving the results? The exhaust venturi is by far the cheapest and most none power robbing way to create a slight vacuum on this set up, but will not create a "high" vacuum on the crank case like vacuum pump setups. If an electric pump is used it puts a load on the electrical system, a belt driven pump puts a load on the accessory drive, plus the cost of rebuilding the pumps, yes both of those style pumps require maintenance. This concludes the testing of the emergency crankcase evacuation system, if this would have been an actual emergency, my dipstick would have blown through the hood!!! LOL!!

[spnkr21]

^good times
Scott you're the man

[jmhinkle]

I'll agree I misread which one allowed pressure in the can then. I absolutely can not agree with your findings when both Doug and I have the Moroso's that you can blow thru from both sides. Don't tell me I didn't test something when we both have the proof in two different parts of the US. Hook all the fucking gauges you want to it, but in the end if I can blow thru it with my mouth it ain't a check valve. Doug had to buy the Jegs to get a check valve. And, as much as you guys want to say the OEM PCV isn't a check valve and the Moroso is better there are as many people with proof of the opposite. I have the pieces on my car right now. Just because you tested it doesn't mean it's gospel. It means it's what you found for the pieces you have. Done with this BS. You do what you think you can prove for your pieces, but don't swear its the fucking be-all end-all. I know what fucking works with what I have in my hands and I know how much money I wasted on BS parts based on your findings.

[Dano]

[SilverDemon]

So....your test was limited to blowing through the valve with your mouth? OK, buddy.. I understand now. I was wrong, all of the testing, and validation I done was a total waste, since you blew through it with your mouth.

You are also mixing up the facts of my test with what you used with what I tested, I never once said I tested the OEM. I tested the Napa PCV that COBB wanted to use.