New to VT, need help getting started

[Andi_RC36]

Hey Guys,

I'm totally new to VT.
I installed VT on my Gen 2 MS3 and flashed the 95EU Octane Base Tune in order to drive E10.

These Mods were done:
Corksport TMIC , HPFP-upgrade, airbox mod with HKS-Filter, EGR-delete, balanceshaft delete, Racepipe, Grimmspeed EBCS (3-port mode) and an upgraded K04 Turbo with bigger compressor wheel and stiffer turbo-actuator.

While doing some logs, fuelcuts happened.


Now I'd like to know, how to start in order to get a propper tune for my setup.

Thanks for helping me getting started

Best regards from Germany

Andi

[Polish_Eagle]

Since you're using a 3-port boost controller you need to change the tune as you'll over boost with the OTS maps and especially since you have an upgraded turbo. Personally, I would just contact an e-tuner and get them to tune your car,save yourself from ZOOMZOOM-BOOM.

[Andi_RC36]

I'd like to learn how to work on the MS3, so e-tune is not an option.
I adjustet die BCS DC Base table. I set the whole table to Zero in order to drive on the wastegate spring pressure. It's quite interesting that the absolut load is still over the target.
Another thing I noticed is the break-in during acceleration in 6th gear (around 884 s in LOG), are these still fuelcuts or is this just a reaction to the KR?

Regards Andi

[tegxsi]

It's probably best to upload logs that are in csv format so us non VT can view.

[Fstrnyou]

I could be wrong, but I thought the 3port setup works opposite to a 2-port. 0% WGDC is spring pressure for a 2-port arrangement. Not so with a 3-port.

[Polish_Eagle]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou I could be wrong, but I thought the 3port setup works opposite to a 2-port. 0% WGDC is spring pressure for a 2-port arrangement. Not so with a 3-port.

No, if that was the case the fail mode of the controller would be fully closed and you'd over boost like crazy. 3 port just requires significantly less duty cycle.

[TheSixthSpeed]

I have VT, but I can't use see any of your logs nor edit your tune. Maybe it's because the Gen2 program is different. I have a Mazdaspeed 6 but I think I've see a gen 1 Mazdaspeed 3 log. It says me version of VT is not compatible.

But anyway, to tune good, you need to 1st 0 out you WGDC, and then see what load you are making. If you go beyond the stock load limit, you will get fuel cut.

You have to raise the load limits, there are quite a few tables that all do the same thing, so you have to edit them all.
DO not raise them way past your targets! These are the only safety features your ECU uses to protect the engine from blowing up! You want to set the limits at the highest value you are will to safety run, usually just a little above the load and boost you want to run.

The load limiting tables are with these sections:
-Absolute limits:
-Load limit force spark retard(some flash tunes set it at 3)
-Operating load limit 1&2(some flash tunes set 3k+ RPM to 3)
-Overboost fuel protection fuel cut: if boost exceeds this value, you *will* have fuel cut.
-Overboost throttle reduction: same as above but your throttle will close a bit and limit your power.
-Overload protection fuel cut: if load goes past this, you will also get fuel cut.

-Load Targeting:
-APP Requested Load Normal Extended: adjust this so that it's right at your load target.
-Requested Load 1st - 6th Gear Limit Low BAT: same as above.
-Requested Lead Limit Overall: some tunes set it at 3.
-Requested Load Limit RPM: some tunes set it at 3 at 3k - 5.5k RPM.
-Requested load limit Baro Specific: set this at the load you want to run.

Recommended:
-Boost control(obvious)
-Fueling: Not really needed, but I recomend you adjust your AFR so it's not so rich.
-Ignition: You could raise the timing a bit for more torque.
-Sensor Calibration: (You should calibrate the MAF sensor even if you have a stock intake so that LTFT is at least between -5 and +5. But it's preferred to get as close to 0 as possible.
-Throttle control (if you want to prevent the throttle from closing at high RPM.)

[Andi_RC36]

Hey Guys, thanks for the input.
As already mentioned I put the WGDC to 0.
Anyway I get between 3.5k an 4.8k RPM an absolutel Load level between 2 an 2.3.
The APP does not exceed 65% ???

I just called my turbo manufacturer, he told me the wastegatespring he used needs 0.8 bar pressure to start opening.
Which loads can an original engine withstand?
How high do I have to raise the limits to deal with the fuel cuts?

Calibrating the MAF sensor isn't necessary, my long LTFT are between 0 and -3

Best regards
Andi

[TheSixthSpeed]

Originally Posted by Andi_RC36 Hey Guys, thanks for the input. As already mentioned I put the WGDC to 0. Anyway I get between 3.5k an 4.8k RPM an absolute Load level between 2 an 2.3. The APP does not exceed 65% ??? I just called my turbo manufacturer, he told me the wastegatespring he used needs 0.8 bar pressure to start opening. Which loads can an original engine withstand? How high do I have to raise the limits to deal with the fuel cuts? Calibrating the MAF sensor isn't necessary, my long LTFT are between 0 and -3 Best regards Andi

The 0.8 bar spring is pretty much the same as the OEM wastegate spring on the stock turbo. You should raise the load limit a bit above your highest seen value (2.3) so you don't get on "overload" condition(which is a table itself). When you get an overload condition, the ECU will use the overload throttle close table first(which is why you don't see more than 65%) and when the load climbs higher than that, the ECU will use the load fuel cut table as a "last resort".

Try using 2.3 as your load target and maybe 2.5 as your load limit, also log your WGDC, as even though you have it set initially to 0, the ECU will automatically raise it to meet your load targets, then you can just set the WGDC to those values. I personally have my load target set to 2.2 - 2.3 till 4,000 RPM on my stock turbo. Then I lower my load to 2.0 above 4,500 because my stock intercooler is restrictive and my WGDC goes up to 100% which is not good, you generally don't want it higher than 80%. Your WGDC should be much lower like around 20 - 50% if you have a 3-port EBCS.

[Andi_RC36]

Thanks TheSixthSpeed.
I had to raise the overboost protection in order to deal with the fuel cuts.
Something I still don't understand is the behavior of my APP. Even when I have just the ignition on and press the pedal to the end I get around 65-75% ???

Another questions is, how much load can the engine handle?

[Fstrnyou]

Originally Posted by Andi_RC36 Another questions is, how much load can the engine handle?

The answer to the million dollar question is: depends on how well it's tuned. But there are plenty of discussions about how much hp/tq the stock system can handle.

[TheSixthSpeed]

Originally Posted by Andi_RC36 Thanks TheSixthSpeed. I had to raise the overboost protection in order to deal with the fuel cuts. Something I still don't understand is the behavior of my APP. Even when I have just the ignition on and press the pedal to the end I get around 65-75% ??? Another questions is, how much load can the engine handle?

The throttle really only needs to open up to like 80% as there is no benefit in performance or anything going past it.

I don't know, but you might benefit going past 80% if you unless were to install a bigger throttle body, valves, manifolds or something. A bigger turbo isn't an upgrade that would benefit form higher throttle %.

As for the load, I guess it could be considered a torque value, but there are a lot of ECU values that are taken into account. Check out this simple, short article from VT:
https://www.versatuner.com/article/m...argeting-logic

Generally, for the stock engine, you don't want to run a lot of torque before 4,000 RPM, you want the torque at the mid-high range, but not rear redline as that is also bad for the stock engine.

One more thing I want to mention:
In the "Boost Control" section, if you go to the "BCS DC Adjustment Limit - Increase", this table will set up to how much % of BCS DC it will automatically raise to meet the load target if there is not enough boost. If you want to test spring preassure, I recommend to set this from the stock 20 value, to 0, thus it won't raise the BCS DC %.

Don't mess with the "Decrease" value! You want to leave this at the stock 100% value so that it can cancel out most of the boost to protect your engine just in case!

[Andi_RC36]

Ok, formulated another way:

If I want to get let's say 370 HP and a maximum torque of less than 500Nm (I think a BL can withstand that over 3K RPM) which load wil I need round about therefor?

[Fstrnyou]

I can't answer that, but there isn't a direct correlation between hp/tq and load. Load is calculated from multiple parameters including RPM, MAF, IAT, etc.

There could be a 50hp difference between 2 tunes at the same load due to different timing maps.

My personal example:
I'm running 18psi now but my knock sensor goes crazy. So I pulled a bunch of timing to clean it up. While not entirely reliable, virtual dyno consistently shows no power gains over the stock tune even though I have increased the load target.

[Andi_RC36]

Sorry for the delayed response, I was really busy.
I resently set the BCS DC Adjustment Limit - Increase to 0, so right now I'm just driving on the spring pressure.
I got some KR with WOT at around 5k rpm so i retarded the ignition some degrees.
How late can I go with the ignition timing before getting the exhaus gas temperature to hot.
Another question: How much KR is usual in part throttle?

[TheSixthSpeed]

Also sorry for my late response. I've also been busy with college. I'm in the same boat as you, as I've just installed a bigger turbo, an S3.

I wouldn't lower the KR less than the stock settings, I think it's better to lower the boost instead. I'm going to start out with 17.5 - 18psi spring pressure on the S3 as I saw it recommended in a thread.

I think that less that less than 3KR shouldn't be concerning unless it's a very long and constant KR, but just a few little spikes is nothing as tough engine mounts and rough roads can trigger KR.

I have a trunk mounted water-methanol injection kit injecting in the middle of the cold pipe between the TMIC and throttle body. + I have an upgraded TMIC(haven't installed yet) and I plan on getting near max the power the stock engine can handle. I upgraded the stock MAP sensor to 3Bar and seeing if I can run 23 - 26psi on the S3, but that depends how much torque I'll be making and I'm going to make sure the boost stays low (20psi) till it gets to 4,000 RPM and then to taper off at redline so the engine stays fine.