The E85 and E85 Mix *Ignition Timing* Database

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by atvfreek I had a speed 6 on the dyno recently and we didn't gain hardly any power above 14* at 6k. It's very important to keep run conditions and road the same if street tuning an aggressive timing curve, and I would still stay a little conservative. Sent from your couch

What mix was that on?

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by boost_addict What mix was that on?

That wasn't even with e85 in the tank. Just running 100% meth, d07 nozzle and obviously zero kr.

Edit: Another note that is an important detail on this tune, is that he had a warranty engine replacement a few months ago, and it's likely the crank sensor is slightly off.

[ABSpeed3]

Originally Posted by ABSpeed3

so I followed the advice from you guys..made timing 15* @ RL and changed the 3500 and 4000 values to 6 and 8 respectively. Is there room for more boost on a 2.5gal mix? This is my vdyno from last night, weight is 400 because both myself and friend were in the car as well as a 5 gal tank of e85 and a subwoofer box that takes up my entire trunk.

[Familyguy427]

Occ. Weight 400lbs??????????????????

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Familyguy427 Occ. Weight 400lbs??????????????????

Originally Posted by ABSpeed3 weight is 400 because both myself and friend were in the car as well as a 5 gal tank of e85 and a subwoofer box that takes up my entire trunk.

RCP.

[Familyguy427]

I totally missed that part. LMFAO!!!!!!!!

[ABSpeed3]

i never got around to getting a different setup I just pulled it straight out of my truck thing is no joke ha

[superdave2335]

so being as this is mostly about timing is anyone against discussing timing on meth since i dont have access to e85 up here in anchorage alaska...i will be jumping on a dyno very soon. using VD as my help i was actually able to hit Phates timing and still showed power being made. my timing is exactly as Phates is in OP up top. im running 90oct (the highest avail in alaska) along with 50/50 meth. i run a 1gal/hr nozzle pre turbo and 6gal/hr pre throttle body. vd numbers showed 325hp/410 iirc. im going to drop timing back down since yall fuckers making me nervous and go up all over again on the dyno.

since im at work ill post this log just to tide yall over until i can post a vd

if this is not ok to post here feel free to delete.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by superdave2335 so being as this is mostly about timing is anyone against discussing timing on meth since i dont have access to e85 up here in anchorage alaska...i will be jumping on a dyno very soon. using VD as my help i was actually able to hit Phates timing and still showed power being made. my timing is exactly as Phates is in OP up top. im running 90oct (the highest avail in alaska) along with 50/50 meth. i run a 1gal/hr nozzle pre turbo and 6gal/hr pre throttle body. vd numbers showed 325hp/410 iirc. im going to drop timing back down since yall fuckers making me nervous and go up all over again on the dyno. since im at work ill post this log just to tide yall over until i can post a vd if this is not ok to post here feel free to delete.

That is quite aggressive. More aggressive than what I feel comfortable with especially not being on a real dyno.

[superdave2335]

I completely understand as well that's why I'm gonna drop it down some until u get back on a dyno. I don't get how I don't knock though. Motor is built and I'm sure ambient temps along with being at sea level has an effect on this. We just recently got a decent dyno in anchorage though and guy said I can make as many pulls for 100$ so I'm gonna take that deal and see what I come up with. Vd pisses me off these days.

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Thanks for chiming in as well lex

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[superdave2335]

Backed off about 4* through whole range and dropped boost as well. Gonna get on the dyno this weekend. How are you guys finding your power points? Are you adding a degree on top of baseline run to find benefits and then adjusting accordingly? Just want to have some tips and tricks to use when I go this weekend. Thanks guys

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[phate]

You can add timing until power plateaus (sans knock). That last point where you pick up power is MBT.

[superdave2335]

Originally Posted by phate You can add timing until power plateaus (sans knock). That last point where you pick up power is MBT.

Ok roger that. Then back off a degree or so from what I've seen. I've got too much damn money in this bus to fuck it up. I appreciate the help lex/phate/dj. I still don't know how to tag ppl in this shit. I know. I'm such a brownie!!!

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[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by superdave2335 so being as this is mostly about timing is anyone against discussing timing on meth since i dont have access to e85 up here in anchorage alaska...i will be jumping on a dyno very soon. using VD as my help i was actually able to hit Phates timing and still showed power being made. my timing is exactly as Phates is in OP up top. im running 90oct (the highest avail in alaska) along with 50/50 meth. i run a 1gal/hr nozzle pre turbo and 6gal/hr pre throttle body. vd numbers showed 325hp/410 iirc. im going to drop timing back down since yall fuckers making me nervous and go up all over again on the dyno. since im at work ill post this log just to tide yall over until i can post a vd if this is not ok to post here feel free to delete.

Something is going crazy with your maf g/s and volts. Make sure you don't have a meth leak spraying at your air filter. Seen that a few times.

[superdave2335]

I actually run a blow thru maf and pre turbo meth. But will remove it tonight because I seen the fluctuating maf as well. Even before pre turbo meth I can seem to get the damn afr's to flatline. Figured it was because I was boost based. Would you recommend going maf based instead? Come on at around 3.4-3.5 volts and go max around 4.3-4.4?

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[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by superdave2335 I actually run a blow thru maf and pre turbo meth. But will remove it tonight because I seen the fluctuating maf as well. Even before pre turbo meth I can seem to get the damn afr's to flatline. Figured it was because I was boost based. Would you recommend going maf based instead? Come on at around 3.4-3.5 volts and go max around 4.3-4.4? Shooting this ISH from my iPhone using forCUMrunner

Ahhh the meth spray is hitting the maf because the pre turbo meth. If you go back to a standard maf setup, that should clean it up. Or pull the pre turbo meth nozzle

Sent from your couch

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by superdave2335 Ok roger that. Then back off a degree or so from what I've seen. I've got too much damn money in this bus to fuck it up. I appreciate the help lex/phate/dj. I still don't know how to tag ppl in this shit. I know. I'm such a brownie!!! Shooting this ISH from my iPhone using forCUMrunner

at in front of the username, semi colon afterwards.

@ superdave2335 ;

@superdave2335;

Take it easy on those forged internals man. You are running some big timing down low.

[superdave2335]

Thanks @rfinkle2; I turned the timing down. Wayyyy down. Gonna hit the dyno next weekend and do it correctly and accurately. Thanks for the heads up guys.

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Originally Posted by atvfreek Ahhh the meth spray is hitting the maf because the pre turbo meth. If you go back to a standard maf setup, that should clean it up. Or pull the pre turbo meth nozzle Sent from your couch

Shitty part about going back to standard draw thru is the fact that my JBR intake dosent have the recirc tube. My blow thru works well and I haven't had any issues with it. Even before when I was draw thru my meth would skew afr's. just want to find a more accurate approach to spray and keep afr's straight. That's why I mentioned trying maf based setup

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[Mfinlay04]

Originally Posted by superdave2335 Shitty part about going back to standard draw thru is the fact that my JBR intake dosent have the recirc tube. My blow thru works well and I haven't had any issues with it. Even before when I was draw thru my meth would skew afr's. just want to find a more accurate approach to spray and keep afr's straight. That's why I mentioned trying maf based setup Shooting this ISH from my iPhone using forCUMrunner

Well spraying meth before the MAF sensor is basically throwing that sensor off. Wiki how a MAF sensor works if you don't know yet but the meth droplets won't play nice with the hot wire. I'm kinda surprised youve never had any cuts with this setup.

Try spraying post MAF

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[superdave2335]

Originally Posted by Mfinlay04 Well spraying meth before the MAF sensor is basically throwing that sensor off. Wiki how a MAF sensor works if you don't know yet but the meth droplets won't play nice with the hot wire. I'm kinda surprised youve never had any cuts with this setup. Try spraying post MAF Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I actually spray both. Ended removing this setup for the risk. Never had issues but just wanted to be cautious. If I was not blow thru I would smash meth down the turbos throat!

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[seshomaru7]

How is that blow thru MAF working out? I've read the sensor doesn't respond consistently to that setup.

[superdave2335]

It can be a little tricky the maf can seem to act finicky but as long as you take your time on maf cal it works just fine. And vta is always fun. I got a jbr wp intake with out recirc so that's another reason I opted to do it.

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[seshomaru7]

Wow. I've also heard something like people only using the MAP with no MAF or something like that. Any idea what I am talking about?

[Dano]

Its called Speed Density and we dont yet have the ECU logic to run it.

Tappin

[mrmonk7663]

Speed Density is a little advanced Factory speed density vs factory mass air....speed desnsity makes more power generally....start modding and the car goes to shit without a custom tune.....I converted cars from speed density to mass air simply for the ease of tuning and forgiveness of the mass air system. Speed density + mods is a game for the big power guys!!!

[seshomaru7]

That's what it was! Now what vehicles were those? Subies?

[superdave2335]

Speed density from what I have seen here in Alaska is difficult when the weather changes and it goes from 80* outside to 0* lol.

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[Dano]

Topic for another thread but yes as VE changes so to must the tune if it expands beyond the table limits.

MAF is much easier and more forgiving to hardware changes.

SD is Robbing Peter to pay Paul IMO.

Tappin

[mrmonk7663]

Old fox body mustangs....87 and 88 had speed density from the factory...except the California models...they got mass air in 88 I believe. Anyway, back on topic

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 Speed Density is a little advanced Factory speed density vs factory mass air....speed desnsity makes more power generally....start modding and the car goes to shit without a custom tune.....I converted cars from speed density to mass air simply for the ease of tuning and forgiveness of the mass air system. Speed density + mods is a game for the big power guys!!!

Actually MAF is newer and more advanced than speed density.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by silvapain Actually MAF is newer and more advanced than speed density.

But in recent turbocharged cars such as the Ecoboost they went back to speed density with some very advanced modelling techniques.

Why? Speed density response is faster than MAF especially if the MAF sensor is so far upstream from the throttle plate.

All the speed density does is it translates pressure into airflow for the engine. You can run a simple table translator such as this:

MAP-ECU3 - Performance Motor Research : Performance Motor Research

Plug it into your MAF harness instead of the MAF and make sure you map the VE table correctly.

[mrmonk7663]

By Advanced, I meant to tune...not the technology. The typical armchair tuner would have quite a bit to learn tuning a modified speed denisity setup.

Originally Posted by silvapain Actually MAF is newer and more advanced than speed density.

[Enki]

Don't you have to retune for changes in altitude on SD?

[mrmonk7663]

You have to retune for everything with SD. Stock for stock a speed density car tends to make more power than a Maf Car. This is seen by numerous dynos with the 88 Mustang GT...this is my reference and experience with speed density. Anyway, as soon as you started modding the speed density system, car would react negatively. In order to reel it back in you had to piggyback the ECU and custom tune it. On the other end, the mustang with a MAF was much more forgiving. Heads/cams/intakes/headers/exhaust/superchargers...and the only thing that was needed to change were fuel pumps, fuel injectors, and maf housing...the maf housing was needed to be changed not for size but to complement the injectors.....these kinds of mods were not possible without extensive piggyback ecu tuning on a speed density setup.

[BuddySpeed3]

Are there any dyno proven values for in tank methanol? I'm running 1 gallon and was able to get away with 16* at 6k rpm holding 18.5 psi on k04. I tuned for what was in the tank and used WMI for more safety and consistency. Weird thing though, I recently turned off the WMI to verify my tune doesn't knock and I started seeing knock values at 5K. Idk why it would suddenly start doing that when it didn't when I was tuning for it. Also I've always been putting a full gallon in every fill up at empty, so there would always be residual meth in tank so I was usually just slightly over 1 gallon.

[phate]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Are there any dyno proven values for in tank methanol?

Not really, but I suspect that once you have sufficient octane with any fuel type, that MBT values on a given engine will be within a degree or two. The big takeaway from this thread, to me, is that there is HUGE variance in MBT curves between engines. I would take the lowest values and use them as a guideline until you are able to tune on a dyno and sufficiently quantify what a degree or two of timing does for power. Street tuning is not accurate enough for that fine of tuning.

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 I'm running 1 gallon and was able to get away with 16* at 6k rpm holding 18.5 psi on k04. I tuned for what was in the tank and used WMI for more safety and consistency. Weird thing though, I recently turned off the WMI to verify my tune doesn't knock and I started seeing knock values at 5K. Idk why it would suddenly start doing that when it didn't when I was tuning for it. Also I've always been putting a full gallon in every fill up at empty, so there would always be residual meth in tank so I was usually just slightly over 1 gallon.

I would go back and have a look at those data logs for comparison, specifically temperatures. Agreed with Enki, this part of your post is best found in a new thread.



Thanks @SofaKingAwesome!

[SofaKingAwesome]

In-tank meth to WMI to in-tank meth tuning woes