The E85 and E85 Mix *Ignition Timing* Database

[hamptotl]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Are you running meth too, or just the e mix?

For this I only ran E I turned meth off for the simple fact that for me it's more of a safety and cleaning thing so I wanted to see where I could be with out it and I am very happy there.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by hamptotl Alright Today was a Dyno day for this guy. Got the car on the rollers to find out what power was looking like. I tuned my timing today and I have to say the car feels great. I will now shut up and get to the good stuff. Mods. DP, CAI, TP ETS TMIC, and KMD internals. No catback, intake or exhaust mani. Running a 5/7 E85 to 93 mix. I got these numbers by pushing timing to MBT and then backing them off 2 degrees. from 2500 they are as follows: -6.09, -1.90, 3.50, 8.00, 13.00, 15.00, 17.00, 18.00, 20.00, 21.00 Also I run 20 PSI tapering to 16.5 by redline and an 11.8 AFR Final numbers of the day: 316WHP and 350 FT/LBS No complaints coming from this guy

Just to clarify a very important point...

Are you sure your 2500-4000 RPM values are actually -2° from MBT? They seem very, very conservative compared to other peoples findings.

From 4500 RPMs and up it looks like you pushed timing much closer to what Phate had identified as MBT with similar mods.

[hamptotl]

@cld12pk2go I didnt push for MBT from 2500-4000. That RPM range frankly scares the shit out of me and I am not concerned with it because thats when I am spooling anyways. I could push it much higher I have before on street tuning and the car was fine I just didnt feel it was needed for what I am looking for. From 4500-RL is where I wanted to make my timing power. My Little bitty turbo does a good job for me from 2500-4000. Also I wanted to add my graphs so they could be seen. Not all runs of the day I did something close to 21 pulls but this is the sheet I had in the car.untitled.JPG

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Bucker DJ, I have run into a few that get spurts of KR in the .3-.5x region several degrees before what I would expect to be close to MBT even with a 50/50 mix of e85. Interesting phenomenon.

Man, 99% of the time, i don't even consider anything below 1.0. It's more likely motor noise than anything IMO.

[hamptotl]

Yeah I see a .35 or .7 every now and again but its whatever to me. As long as I dont see above 1.xx then I really dont care lol.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by hamptotl @cld12pk2go I didnt push for MBT from 2500-4000. That RPM range frankly scares the shit out of me and I am not concerned with it because thats when I am spooling anyways. I could push it much higher I have before on street tuning and the car was fine I just didnt feel it was needed for what I am looking for. From 4500-RL is where I wanted to make my timing power. My Little bitty turbo does a good job for me from 2500-4000. Also I wanted to add my graphs so they could be seen. Not all runs of the day I did something close to 21 pulls but this is the sheet I had in the car.Attachment 48761

FYI,

You are giving up about 50-100 ft-lbs of torque from 2500-4000 RPMs from what you could easily achieve, but I understand if you desire a bit of caution.

Hell, traction in 4th gear is nice occasionally.

[hamptotl]

Oh I am totally aware of the power I am missing out on lol it is just as you said though a little bit of a caution and safety net. I really don't want boom boom lol

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go FYI, You are giving up about 50-100 ft-lbs of torque from 2500-4000 RPMs from what you could easily achieve, but I understand if you desire a bit of caution. Hell, traction in 4th gear is nice occasionally.

I guess this was surprisingly accurate, hahaha. Tommy will be posting up shortly.

[hamptotl]

Alright guys so I was feeling like I left something unattended and incomplete by putting dyno verified numbers up for only 4.5-rl.

So I went back to the dyno and tuned from 2.5-4 to make things happier through my torque curve, needless to say @cld12pk2go It was scary how spot on you were LOL.

I have to pick up a copy of my graphs later today because they were having problems with their printer. Anyways here is my Full DYNO VERIFIED timing curve from 2.5 to redline.

1.00 4.00 6.00 9.00 12.00 16.00 17.00 18.00 20.00 22.00

These were found by reaching MBT(no longer increased torque by adding a degree) and then backing off two degrees.

New gains are as follows( i wrote them down before leaving LOL.)

2000 RPM before:175 after:200 3000 B:277 A:320 3500 B:300 A:330 4000 B:325 A:353 All in All no complaints here and it really does make a hell of a differance.

Oh yeah and Dustin its still super smooth LOL even smoother actually.

And according to the VD I am at 383 and 406 on a dynojet lol Silly VD

[phate]

Thanks for the info. VD puts me ~390hp and 490lb/ft at dynojet correction, so you aren't too far off on the hp I just ramp in shit tons of boost as soon as possible coupled with a ton of timing, lol. That low end torque makes the car really fun to drive. I'm presuming you had mostly flat horsepower from like 4k, on up? [Link us to your results!!]

OP updated.

[hamptotl]

IMG_1785.JPGGraph as promised this is the best look at it. Basically from start yesterday to finish today and I am very happy with it. Oh yeah it was very nice and smooth I will get some graphs up as soon as possible gotta swing by the shop to get them this afternoon.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by hamptotl Attachment 48850Graph as promised this is the best look at it. Basically from start yesterday to finish today and I am very happy with it. Oh yeah it was very nice and smooth I will get some graphs up as soon as possible gotta swing by the shop to get them this afternoon.

Hell ya man, that's awesome gains in a day. Lol. Tuning e-85 for the win!!!

Tappin

[Ziggo]

So this is my advance table, which gives me small counts of knock up top using a 3/9 E85 mixture. I live with them though because it is not 100% consistent, and I can live with the motor pulling 1-2deg of timing in the rare instance I run it out over 6000rpm.



Also attached are two logs, the "knock" log uses the above timing. The no knock log was identical except it was .5* less timing.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by hamptotl Alright guys so I was feeling like I left something unattended and incomplete by putting dyno verified numbers up for only 4.5-rl. So I went back to the dyno and tuned from 2.5-4 to make things happier through my torque curve, needless to say @cld12pk2go It was scary how spot on you were LOL. I have to pick up a copy of my graphs later today because they were having problems with their printer. Anyways here is my Full DYNO VERIFIED timing curve from 2.5 to redline. 1.00 4.00 6.00 9.00 12.00 16.00 17.00 18.00 20.00 22.00 These were found by reaching MBT(no longer increased torque by adding a degree) and then backing off two degrees. New gains are as follows( i wrote them down before leaving LOL.) 2000 RPM before:175 after:200 3000 B:277 A:320 3500 B:300 A:330 4000 B:325 A:353 All in All no complaints here and it really does make a hell of a differance. Oh yeah and Dustin its still super smooth LOL even smoother actually. And according to the VD I am at 383 and 406 on a dynojet lol Silly VD

When I stated the 50-100 ft-lbs left on the table, I was envisioning pushing the K04 to ~22 PSI in the 3000-4000 RPM range where it could support it to get closer to the 100 ft-lbs gain level.

I had a pretty good idea on this as I gained ~80 ft-lbs by adding ~5° at 3000 RPM with +1 PSI this summer.

The change was epic.

Glad you are enjoying.

I need to get to the dyno before too long. I just wish I could get a good solid load tune (damn load cap v2™), but I am at least getting the boost tune decently setup (21.5 PSI now)...

[Dano]

damned if you do and damned if you don't....boost tune that is

....where is that TC3.....lol.....
















absolutely kidding.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Ziggo So this is my advance table, which gives me small counts of knock up top using a 3/9 E85 mixture. I live with them though because it is not 100% consistent, and I can live with the motor pulling 1-2deg of timing in the rare instance I run it out over 6000rpm.

After multiple consistent pulls with a 2.5 gallon E85 mix with a customer I see very similar timing to what you posted where KR starts to show up when BATs get close to 100. This is on the K04.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by Lex After multiple consistent pulls with a 2.5 gallon E85 mix with a customer I see very similar timing to what you posted where KR starts to show up when BATs get close to 100. This is on the K04.

Lex, 368WHP? What the hell man! I'm loving it!

[Bucker]

On that note, here is a recent result... Not dyno tuned, etune exclusively. NOTHING was adjusted on the dyno.

Dyno with Dizzy tune.

Timing numbers:



Mods are:
50/50 e85/93. Cobb SRI, TIP, Downpipe, ETS TMIC

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Bucker Lex, 368WHP? What the hell man! I'm loving it!

Also take this with a grain of salt in that running 400 ft lbs of torque on the stock motor is not something everyone is comfortable with. Any way you slice it that is a lot of load for the stock motor to take.

[silvapain]

Jesus. Am I the only one that could do 18° of advance at RL on pump gas with the K04 and not knock?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by silvapain Jesus. Am I the only one that could do 18° of advance at RL on pump gas with the K04 and not knock?

How cold was it? How much boost? Some cars do better than others - could also be slight alignment of crank sensor.

[rfinkle2]

That car that Lex is tuning is holding some serious boost @ redline.

Sick plot Lex. !

Oh, and Silvapain, 18* is pretty good for 93 octane.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Lex How cold was it? How much boost? Some cars do better than others - could also be slight alignment of crank sensor.

It was in the summer, and I was maxing out at 18psi boost on 93 octane (this was prior to HPFP internals). I would get knock at more than 18° advance.

The logs are on another laptop; I'll have to see if I can find them.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by silvapain It was in the summer, and I was maxing out at 18psi boost on 93 octane (this was prior to HPFP internals). I would get knock at more than 18° advance. The logs are on another laptop; I'll have to see if I can find them.

I used to run 18-19 on the K.... Running as high as 22.5 now on a gt3071 on pump with meth.

[phate]

OP has been updated!!!

[phate]

The dyno was a dynojet 224xLC. This is the same model I tune on in Chicago

We went in with the following timing curve - Blue line - Run 001:
3.0 5.5 7.5 9.5 11.5 13 14.5 16 17.5

We came out with the following curve - Bold Green line - Run 011:
4.0 6.5 8.5 10.5 13.0 16.0 18.0 20.0 22.5

We had a peak (close to MBT) timing of - Red line - Run 008:
6.0 8.5 10.5 12.5 15.0 18.0 20.0 22.0 24.5

Uncorrected Power



SAE Correction

[rfinkle2]

That is uncorrected WHP^ so uncorrected so uncorrected WTQ must've been significantly higher.

[Dano]

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Tappin

[superskaterxes]

i need to get on a dyno and find where my MBT is as well but ill be waiting till the fall when its not 100+ degrees out lol

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes i need to get on a dyno and find where my MBT is as well but ill be waiting till the fall when its not 100+ degrees out lol

I'd split the cost of the dyno time with you if you go. LOL. I really could use some known good values and back it off a few degrees for high boost applications and an e85 mix for e-tunes.

I totally appreciate the k04 information shared here and Driver's 22 psi ignition map, but it would be soooo valuable to have some sort of guidlelines to work from for high load / high boost cars.

[phate]

OP updated.

Take note of mazdafreak's two dyno sessions with drastically different setups.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by phate OP updated. Take note of mazdafreak's two dyno sessions with drastically different setups.

Was temperature different between the runs? The K04 is very much affected by inlet temps.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Lex Was temperature different between the runs? The K04 is very much affected by inlet temps.

No, it was roughly the same time of year, so temps weren't drastically different. His hard parts setup was drastically different, but I don't think that is a great explanation for the reduced timing requirement.

Power production was within 2-4hp over the entire mid and upper rpm range between the two sessions, as well. On the bottom end, we picked up some power with higher boost. We pulled a few degrees before he swapped all of the parts, and walked it back up from there. The new curve was surprising.

Edit: to clarify the temp change statement: IAT's would have been higher (not by much), but the BAT's would have been lower (20+° lower). His Cobb FMIC is a CHAMP!

[Enki]

So basically, the more bolted you are the less timing you need to hit peak power/airflow...?

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki So basically, the more bolted you are the less timing you need to hit peak power/airflow...?

I actually don't see a trend like that. I was thinking it for a while, but then I had a few more cars on.

If you look, JTMS3 and mazdafreak have a shit ton of parts. JTMS3's car took a TON of timing, mazdafreaks not so much with the extra parts.

But, my car and forcedinduktion's car have very few parts and they have drastically different timing curves.

Point being - stay conservative until you can get on a dyno. Think I've been saying this for a long time now

[forcedinduktion]

I haz low powahh!

JK Clint got my shit running good

[forcedinduktion]

So it looks pretty consistent that the k04 will hold no more than 17 at redline.

[Lex]

Mine holds 20psi if IATs stay below 85*

Too many variables to talk about here but if you want airflow, do the following:

1. As large an intake as possible.
2. A clean dryflow filter.
3. As cold air as possible.

The above can be worth well over 30whp depending on setup.

[Enki]

Also move to below sea-level.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by phate I actually don't see a trend like that. I was thinking it for a while, but then I had a few more cars on. If you look, JTMS3 and mazdafreak have a shit ton of parts. JTMS3's car took a TON of timing, mazdafreaks not so much with the extra parts. But, my car and forcedinduktion's car have very few parts and they have drastically different timing curves. Point being - stay conservative until you can get on a dyno. Think I've been saying this for a long time now

Do you happen to have mazdafreaks dyno files. I like to see roughly what he made 2 degrees below that final curve, and the power at mbt itself. Even that curve is pretty aggressive. Just curious to see of its even worth pushing to within two degrees of mbt on a DD driven map. Haha

Freekn tappin