The most awaited build in MSF history

[06Speed6]

Yeah you seriously have no competition. I need to get dustins 5th port injection system too... hmm...

[ganque]

Subbed for results! Good luck!

[darkcherry]

Do you guys know the part number for the hemi tb? Or if there is anywhere to pick one up besides stealer.

[06Speed6]

There are like 10 million hemi throttle bodys in the usa, I think you need to go to the dealer and make it 10 million and 1

Junkyard
Ebay
Amazon
Dodge forums
craigslist

[theurgy]

Right.. but he's also asking for a part number.

[06Speed6]

I dont know a part number but they look like this

[BobtailedSnail]

I think there was some talk earlier about @SilverDemon IM having an option for the dodge TB.

[06Speed6]

Yeah that was me, I still need to send Jim a tb.

[BobtailedSnail]

Get on that ish I need to complete my mod list for my build. But on the real, are all the bugs worked out of this swap yet?

[06Speed6]

There are no bugs per se, just only one or two people running it so the dbw tables arent real refined. I dont know @Erich is willing to post the tables that he is using, but that would give us a head start for sure.

In other news I emailed TT about the bushing and they are sending another bushing to me. They didnt even question it and offered a replacement on their own. That was seriously nice.

[ccspeed3]

Subbed, you need any help let me know.
I know i wasnt much help last time but I have umbrella for the sun haha.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 There are no bugs per se, just only one or two people running it so the dbw tables arent real refined. I dont know @Erich is willing to post the tables that he is using, but that would give us a head start for sure. In other news I emailed TT about the bushing and they are sending another bushing to me. They didnt even question it and offered a replacement on their own. That was seriously nice.

Not the throttle I am using. A couple of small things about the one that I am:

1) Jerky on and off (this is likely a combinations of large TB, large IM and porting). I was able to lessen this using the the APP Translation tables and creating a large flat spot at the bottom, the rest is trying to make sure I am <2000 RPM while driving:

0.00	0.50	1.00	1.00	1.50	2.00	2.00	2.50	3.00	3.00	5.82	8.63	11.94	15.25	17.01	18.36	21.36	24.84	28.31	32.01	36.16	40.31	45.01	49.71	56.35	62.99	71.05	75.09	79.12	89.56	100.00

2) Laggy off throttle. Not to the point where it is a safety concern but does require some table tweaks and driving adjustments. I also think that this is present with stock throttle and being amplified by the large throttle.

DBW table:

0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00
1.98	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	1.32	2.64	2.64
2.24	1.98	1.98	1.98	2.38	2.64	2.64	2.64	2.64	2.64	2.64	2.64	2.64	4.62	4.62
2.51	3.30	3.43	3.43	3.83	4.36	3.96	3.43	3.96	3.96	3.96	5.28	5.28	6.60	6.60
2.77	4.62	5.81	5.81	6.07	6.47	6.07	5.94	5.15	5.94	5.94	7.26	7.92	9.24	7.66
3.04	5.28	6.60	7.52	8.05	8.58	8.45	8.18	7.92	8.84	9.24	9.24	10.03	10.69	10.16
3.30	5.94	7.26	9.64	10.30	10.82	10.30	10.03	10.03	10.82	11.09	11.75	13.07	12.67	12.67
3.56	6.60	8.98	12.54	12.80	13.07	12.94	12.14	12.14	13.20	13.33	13.73	15.05	14.78	13.60
3.83	7.26	10.82	14.39	14.92	15.44	14.52	14.12	13.86	15.05	15.44	15.84	16.10	16.50	16.10
4.09	7.92	13.20	16.63	16.90	17.29	16.50	16.24	15.58	16.10	16.63	17.29	18.22	18.22	18.61
7.00	9.50	15.44	18.74	19.14	19.54	18.22	17.42	16.90	17.56	19.14	19.01	19.40	19.67	22.04
9.77	12.41	17.95	20.99	21.25	21.65	20.46	19.01	17.95	19.14	20.20	20.46	21.12	20.86	25.48
23.76	14.65	21.25	23.63	23.63	23.63	21.78	20.20	19.40	20.59	21.12	21.78	23.50	25.74	29.70
60.00	29.04	24.55	25.08	24.68	24.16	22.57	21.25	20.86	22.31	22.84	24.02	25.74	28.38	31.81
60.00	60.00	26.80	27.06	26.40	25.74	23.50	22.31	21.78	23.36	24.55	26.00	27.85	29.04	35.64
60.00	60.00	31.42	29.04	34.32	33.73	31.71	30.64	30.16	31.59	32.66	33.96	35.63	36.70	42.64
60.00	60.00	46.99	44.62	42.24	41.71	39.92	38.97	38.54	39.81	40.76	41.92	43.40	44.35	49.63
60.00	60.00	70.00	71.28	50.16	49.70	48.13	47.30	46.93	48.03	48.87	49.88	51.18	52.01	56.63
60.00	60.00	70.00	75.24	58.08	57.68	56.34	55.62	55.31	56.26	56.97	57.84	58.95	59.66	63.62
60.00	60.00	70.00	79.20	66.00	65.67	64.55	63.95	63.69	64.48	65.08	65.80	66.73	67.32	70.62
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	73.92	73.66	72.76	72.28	72.07	72.71	73.18	73.76	74.50	74.98	77.62
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00
60.00	60.00	70.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	80.00

The DBW table was finicky. Problems moved in and out while I was playing around with it for no apparent reason and changes to one part of the table seem to have large impact on other parts of the table with no apparent logic. I played around with this table quite a bit before settling into this. Could probably still be improved but I got tired of playing with it.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Edit: oh and I decided to go with carillo h beams and forged pistons. I want to crush @Erichs car

subbed to live vicariously thru this build.

BTW. noob question but does any vendor make I beam rods for us? I know the scoobie guys love them and apparently they are absolutely bullet proof over H beams.

that is the extent of my knowledge there.

best of luck and we need some pics

[superskaterxes]

does anyone know the actual flow limits of the stock TB?

[phate]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes does anyone know the actual flow limits of the stock TB?

Just need to know the ID and we can get a good idea. 3" piping and throttle bodies have been proven to handle around 1k HP....

[Koke382]

cant wait!

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by ccspeed3 Subbed, you need any help let me know. I know i wasnt much help last time but I have umbrella for the sun haha.

Yeah ill keep you posted when it goes together, thanks for dropping by.

Originally Posted by Dano subbed to live vicariously thru this build. BTW. noob question but does any vendor make I beam rods for us? I know the scoobie guys love them and apparently they are absolutely bullet proof over H beams. that is the extent of my knowledge there. best of luck and we need some pics

I dont know of any I beams, the carillo h beams are rated at unlimited hp... seriously.

Originally Posted by Erich Not the throttle I am using. A couple of small things about the one that I am: 1) Jerky on and off (this is likely a combinations of large TB, large IM and porting). I was able to lessen this using the the APP Translation tables and creating a large flat spot at the bottom, the rest is trying to make sure I am <2000 RPM while driving: 0.00 0.50 1.00 1.00 1.50 2.00 2.00 2.50 3.00 3.00 5.82 8.63 11.94 15.25 17.01 18.36 21.36 24.84 28.31 32.01 36.16 40.31 45.01 49.71 56.35 62.99 71.05 75.09 79.12 89.56 100.00 2) Laggy off throttle. Not to the point where it is a safety concern but does require some table tweaks and driving adjustments. I also think that this is present with stock throttle and being amplified by the large throttle. DBW table The DBW table was finicky. Problems moved in and out while I was playing around with it for no apparent reason and changes to one part of the table seem to have large impact on other parts of the table with no apparent logic. I played around with this table quite a bit before settling into this. Could probably still be improved but I got tired of playing with it.

Thanks man, what tb are you using? I really thought it was the hemi tb.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes does anyone know the actual flow limits of the stock TB?

I calculated 430hp based on diameter minus blade, thats at 24psi. Over that it does flow more but to takes more and more pressure per hp, 27psi was the effective limit because it made like 2hp per psi after that lol. That was not calculating turbulence or anything either, just a straight cfm as a product of cross section and pressure equation. Iirc the stock im outflows the stock tb lol, not in the real world but on a bench, it doesnt matter but its still funny.

[superskaterxes]

Fuuuuuuuuck now i need a new TB lol

[superskaterxes]

What was the max cfm u calculated?

[06Speed6]

Max possible cfm is like 1000cfm because you are getting close to sonic speeds. Realistically its more like 600cfm which is around 300mph velocity which is alot easier to achieve. Most tuner guys will tell you that 125-150cfm is about 100hp so 400-480hp give or take depending on ALOT of factors.

[06Speed6]

First round or parts and supplies ordering:

88mm ring compressor
250ftlb torque wrench... mine only went to 175ftlb =P stupid crank bolt
Rod bolt stretch gauge
New valve spring compressor, cuz I managed to break mine... dont ask
More ARP molly lube
Engine assembly grease

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes does anyone know the actual flow limits of the stock TB?

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I calculated 430hp based on diameter minus blade, thats at 24psi. Over that it does flow more but to takes more and more pressure per hp, 27psi was the effective limit because it made like 2hp per psi after that lol. That was not calculating turbulence or anything either, just a straight cfm as a product of cross section and pressure equation. Iirc the stock im outflows the stock tb lol, not in the real world but on a bench, it doesnt matter but its still funny.

I don't think you're doing that right... A 2" diameter restrictor can flow around 500hp with zero boost. How big is our TB?

[06Speed6]

I calculated 2" of net useable area and calculated the practical max velocity at 375mphish and calculated 100hp to 150cfm.

To call you out for once, I calculate that a 2" diameter restrictor will flow exactly zero hp at zero boost.

[JMEngineer]

zero boost meaning choked flow with atmospheric pressure on the intake side...



A GTX3076R is rated for 640hp and the outlet on that is a little under 1.75"

[superskaterxes]

so @Erich or @kmac,

what throttle bodies did u guys use? off of which model years?

[06Speed6]

Kmac has a cx-9 v6 tb which I have laying here but the throttle sensor has to be modded.

[superskaterxes]

so i pretty much spent most of my day researching the TB's lol

it looks like the 5.7L hemi TB from dodge will work but i need to find a harness for it. anyone have one i can borrow and do some testing with? i also need to find out the bolt pattern/spacing to see how it will fit on scotts manifold.

[Dash08]

I just want to see detailed pics when you install the turbo encabulator and flux capacitor.

[kmac]

Cut the manifold and reflange it

[superskaterxes]

lol it would be nice to know the pattern BEFORE i go and destroy the mani haha

[superskaterxes]

marcus,

can you post your math on how u came up with the CFM calcs for the OEM TB? im really looking into this but apparently the evos have a smaller TB then us and someone is making 800whp on the stock one........

[06Speed6]

To update the thread, I finally got paid so I can finally buy all the parts that I need. So far I have picked up

Cpe stage 2 pistons
Oil pump
oil pickup
oil pickup gasket
Larger TB
Cpe injector seals
Timing chain
Timing chain tensioner
275'lb capable torque wrench
rod bolt stretch gauge
new ring compressor
New valve spring compressor (broke mine)
More arp moly
Assembly lube
Another cometic hg
Arp main/head studs
injector stud kit
gen 2 valve cover
ultra sonic cleaned and flow benched matched injector set
Ptp 2250psi relief valve
new upper and lower radiator hoses
thermostat
complete seal kit
Tcase bearing cap upgrade
new water pump
new drive belt
New a/c compressor
New alternator
New p/s pump
New spark plugs
Timing tools
Big valve ported head
Egr delete
Cdfp
cdfp hard line mod
3.5bar map
spin on filter
Cosworth bsd
oil cooler
Oil cooler fan
oil cooler fan temp switch
oil thermostat
An12 stainless oil lines
New friction washers

Pending parts:
Pauter rods machined to 22.5mm
Custom full face feramic clutch
Arp crank bolt
arp flywheel bolts
Block machining
dcr vvt
Tcase seals
Trans seals
trans shift fork upgrade
Chrome plate on alot of parts
tcase coating
Piston ceramic coating
Engine/trans paint
anti friction coatings
Mazda 6 diesel trans
Jm fabrications im
Web cams

[Boosted Beluga]

Whats this cdfp hard line mod?

Just switch it to a hard line?

[Dano]

I think there's a restrictor that you can drill out.

What is the sensor limit? I get cut and pegged logged psi @ 2073 running a 2150 PTP valve.

Tappin

[superskaterxes]

2073 is the sensor limit

[crazyp]

is the machining going to be local or out of town?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes 2073 is the sensor limit

so is niggah doing a sensor upgrade or how else is he gonna get to 2200PSI? And if a sensor upgrade where are the scalar tables in ATR...IIRC David gave up on that task due to too many tables referencing fuel pressure sensor

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano so is niggah doing a sensor upgrade or how else is he gonna get to 2200PSI? And if a sensor upgrade where are the scalar tables in ATR...IIRC David gave up on that task due to too many tables referencing fuel pressure sensor

no idea.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes no idea.

now that's a worthless answer...haha

[superskaterxes]

not really sure why anyone would want to bump FP higher then stock values. all it does is skew the spray pattern and fuck up combustion