Why are APs so expensive?

[Roddiy]

So Cobb, I have a question:


Why are the APs so expensive? Is it the R&D? is it because of some sort of licensing with the manufacturer of the ECUs?

Surely it can't be because of the hardware, unless there's some crazy chip inside there, the thing costs as much as a new computer!



I'm not complaining per say(though I do think $600 is a rather high price point, but the AP is pretty much the best solution out there, if I had the money lying around I would happily pay for a new one!) but I would just like to know the reason for so much money.







@Evan@COBB;

[crazyp]

Software programming isn't cheap. And lifetime updates. Plus it reads and clears codes, and logs. It's actually pretty cheap for what it does.

a dash hawk is 200 bucks and all it does is log. And guess how much the CPE Standbacks cost when they came out.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by crazyp Software programming isn't cheap. And lifetime updates. Plus it reads and clears codes, and logs. It's actually pretty cheap for what it does. a dash hawk is 200 bucks and all it does is log. And guess how much the CPE Standbacks cost when they came out.

QTF!!!!

I used to have PMS Anderson for my stang and paid a little over 1k.
So yea mid 500's for the AP, Its cheap..

[Dmurray06]

And well, lets be honest...they have the market cornered.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Dmurray06 And we'll, lets be honest...they have a market cornered.

+1 for actual explanation...

Originally Posted by himurax13 The bigger question is why did you buy coilovers first? The stock suspension is adequate for most people. Sent via smokey turbo.

Because in my opinion the best way to go about things is to make sure you have a solid platform to throw power into.


Not to say that the stock suspension isn't fine, but better suspension components make the car WAY more stable than stock, and much more controllable.

[Dmurray06]

Originally Posted by Roddiy +1 for actual explanation...

God damn, I got to edit that post. That's some fat finger typing.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Roddiy +1 for actual explanation... Because in my opinion the best way to go about things is to make sure you have a solid platform to throw power into. Not to say that the stock suspension isn't fine, but better suspension components make the car WAY more stable than stock, and much more controllable.

Funny you should say that. I bought my car with ST coilovers (rebranded KW1) and the struts blew after a few thousand miles. I threw the stock suspension on (mind you I have a tripoint RSB) and the car handled and felt much better.

What made an even bigger impact was ditching the stock crap dunlops and the Hankook V12 and going with some decent tires like the Federal RSR.

Sent via smokey turbo.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by himurax13 Funny you should say that. I bought my car with ST coilovers (rebranded KW1) and the struts blew after a few thousand miles. I threw the stock suspension on (mind you I have a tripoint RSB) and the car handled and felt much better. Sent via smokey turbo.

lol should I even begin to attempt to explain to you that blown struts on ANY suspension will handle worse than stock?

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Roddiy lol should I even begin to attempt to explain to you that blown struts on ANY suspension will handle worse than stock?

No you don't.

The ride quality sucked before the struts blew and handling felt worse than stock.

Sent via smokey turbo.

[Sweetsandman]

Originally Posted by Roddiy Because in my opinion the best way to go about things is to make sure you have a solid platform to throw power into. Not to say that the stock suspension isn't fine, but better suspension components make the car WAY more stable than stock, and much more controllable.

Let's be honest...you bought coilovers for moar low...like a majority of the folks on here...no need to try to justify it with words like "stable" and "controllable." The stock suspension is more than adequate to take turns at 60 as you say...tires are what improve your on ramp cornering.

Back on topic...While R&D, and lifetime updates are all fantastic...let's not forget that you're paying for the name. A brand new laptop has R&D and lifetime updates...and does a heck of a lot more than an AP for around the same price. In fact, I wish Cobb would take notes from HPTuners and ditch this stupid plastic thing that is as flimsy as all get out. Just go strictly software with a USB to OBD2 like HPTuners or even Trifecta. I'd still gladly pay the same price...the AP looks and feels cheap...feels like I have to treat it like I'm holding an egg or I'll crack it. And if you sneeze near it the screen scratches.

But, as I mentioned, you're paying for the name at least in some capacity. I mean ALL of their parts are expensive...like going through AMS...or Crawford...Cobb probably produces their catted downpipe for around 200 bucks...don't tell me they don't mark their shit up...a lot.

Having said that, the AP is the ONLY way to go. And until someone else comes out with something as good or better for less money, plan on paying for an AP...

Also OP... If you pay full retail for an AP, you're an idiot.

I Tapped that

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Sweetsandman Let's be honest...you bought coilovers for moar low...like a majority of the folks on here...no need to try to justify it with words like "stable" and "controllable." The stock suspension is more than adequate to take turns at 60 as you say...tires are what improve your on ramp cornering. Back on topic...While R&D, and lifetime updates are all fantastic...let's not forget that you're paying for the name. A brand new laptop has R&D and lifetime updates...and does a heck of a lot more than an AP for around the same price. In fact, I wish Cobb would take notes from HPTuners and ditch this stupid plastic thing that is as flimsy as all get out. Just go strictly software with a USB to OBD2 like HPTuners or even Trifecta. I'd still gladly pay the same price...the AP looks and feels cheap...feels like I have to treat it like I'm holding an egg or I'll crack it. And if you sneeze near it the screen scratches. But, as I mentioned, you're paying for the name at least in some capacity. I mean ALL of their parts are expensive...like going through AMS...or Crawford...Cobb probably produces their catted downpipe for around 200 bucks...don't tell me they don't mark their shit up...a lot. Having said that, the AP is the ONLY way to go. And until someone else comes out with something as good or better for less money, plan on paying for an AP... Also OP... If you pay full retail for an AP, you're an idiot. I Tapped that

Full disclosure here, my car isn't that low at all. It was set lower when I got the coils but I raised them a bit.


I'm basically waiting for either a used AP or for Cobb to throw a sale on the Mazda APs like they're doing with the Evos. I'd pay $420 for a new AP tonight if they did that.

[Pseud0logik]

You're crazy if you pay $600 for the AP. Even $550 is kinda high.

That being said, even at $600 it's the biggest bang for your buck mod on this car.

[Micha]

Next time buy an AP instead of your coilovers.

And stop being cheap.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Micha Next time buy an AP instead of your coilovers. And stop being cheap.

This.

OP, if you think $600 is expensive, you should trade in your car right now and get a fucking Camry.

Sent via smokey turbo.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Micha Next time buy an AP instead of your coilovers. And stop being cheap.

I almost did that,

I could have gotten an AP, HPFP and a DP for that money.


But coils cost probably 10x as much as AP speaking strictly of Materials, it's a piece of plastic and some circuitry vs metal and gas tubing.




I hadn't taken software programming into account, hell, I'm a programmer, I know shit ain't cheap, lifetime updates do cost a lot on the long run. That could explain the price..

Originally Posted by himurax13 This. OP, if you think $600 is expensive, you should trade in your car right now and get a fucking Camry. Sent via smokey turbo.

Lol, $600 is expensive, so is $1200 for coilovers.



I work hard for my money, I know it's worth it, but college + basic car upkeep already takes up most of my income, saving up for stuff takes a long time, and I can only do it when there aren't other unexpected bills to pay.



So sorry we're not all living large. It's a harsh reality.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Roddiy I almost did that, I could have gotten an AP, HPFP and a DP for that money. But coils cost probably 10x as much as AP speaking strictly of Materials, it's a piece of plastic and some circuitry vs metal and gas tubing. I hadn't taken software programming into account, hell, I'm a programmer, I know shit ain't cheap, lifetime updates do cost a lot on the long run. That could explain the price..

The bigger question is why did you buy coilovers first? The stock suspension is adequate for most people.

Sent via smokey turbo.

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by Roddiy I almost did that, I could have gotten an AP, HPFP and a DP for that money. But coils cost probably 10x as much as AP speaking strictly of Materials, it's a piece of plastic and some circuitry vs metal and gas tubing. I hadn't taken software programming into account, hell, I'm a programmer, I know shit ain't cheap, lifetime updates do cost a lot on the long run. That could explain the price.. Lol, $600 is expensive, so is $1200 for coilovers. I work hard for my money, I know it's worth it, but college + basic car upkeep already takes up most of my income, saving up for stuff takes a long time, and I can only do it when there aren't other unexpected bills to pay. So sorry we're not all living large. It's a harsh reality.

You are a cheap fuck I bet those coils u bought arnt that great. Ever head the saying. Stingy man buys the best?. U should adopt that. I just spent almost 3k on my suspension but its the best coilovers u can get on the 3 and I am sure I won't have any problems with it down the road which is why I bought them.

If u are a good programmer you should be making decent money. Quit complaining and buy it

/thread

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[dannythall]

Because it is worth it.

[Kyle Undefined]

Because finding the Unicorn dust is an exhausting task.

[Yatta]

To get the level of control you have with an AP you would have to go stand alone or, reverse engineer the hell out of the ECU, pure software solutions should be cheaper but not as easy to access, the AP is small and allows for multiple maps and log collection without having a laptop in the car, I personally wish I could pair a smartphone to the AP (say via BT or Wifi) as I find the display lacking (single monitoring) and am unable to use my BT ODBII while the AP is attached... I have done stand alone on another platform and can tell you is the functionality you are getting is worth every penny, even before the OTS maps they include.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Yatta To get the level of control you have with an AP you would have to go stand alone or, reverse engineer the hell out of the ECU, pure software solutions should be cheaper but not as easy to access, the AP is small and allows for multiple maps and log collection without having a laptop in the car, I personally wish I could pair a smartphone to the AP (say via BT or Wifi) as I find the display lacking (single monitoring) and am unable to use my BT ODBII while the AP is attached... I have done stand alone on another platform and can tell you is the functionality you are getting is worth every penny, even before the OTS maps they include.

So we're basically coming down to this:


Software Engineering(R&D) and Lifetime Upgrades?



That answer satisfies me pretty well. I hadn't thought of that before coming in.



It would still be nice if Cobb chimed in just to confirm!

[himurax13]

LOL, they are shitty coilovers. If I do upgrade my suspension, I will probably go swift springs and Bilsteins.

The stock suspension with a decent RSB handled 380hp just fine.
Sent via smokey turbo.

[mr.speedy3]

Back on track!

I agree, most is probably R&D, I know that shit is expensive. I too am a Software Engineer. My company dropped $12.7mill USD on a single company last year just for R&D (and that was not the only company we invested in). Fucken crazy. And of course, you pay for the R&D. That being said, I wish COBB would take the AP HW to the next level. If you do a bit of searching, you'll find a thread I was active in regarding upgrading the HW on the AP. Not that what I said there will ever take charge. But it's being discussed by many others on the forum. I really would love to see an update on the HW, especially the damn connector COBB (won't let me mention ><). Lol. Hopeful wishing! I enjoyed the latest release of SW from them, it was refreshing.

If I can find that thread, I'll link it.

[turboKart]

A nice big touch screen, fast processor(s), media options and comm capabilities up the butt - that'd be my smartphone, tablet or whatever, and the ultimate landing place for Cobb's code and a custom dongle. I would gladly pay the current price of an AP if they would build modern interfaces and integrate with my [android,tablet,etcccc]...and they could dump the costs for the custom plastic. Security (i.e. non=pirate-able) shouldn't be an issue, if they are shmart about it.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by turboKart A nice big touch screen, fast processor(s), media options and comm capabilities up the butt - that'd be my smartphone, tablet or whatever, and the ultimate landing place for Cobb's code and a custom dongle. I would gladly pay the current price of an AP if they would build modern interfaces and integrate with my [android,tablet,etcccc]...and they could dump the costs for the custom plastic. Security (i.e. non=pirate-able) shouldn't be an issue, if they are shmart about it.

now THIS is something I could get behind.


Throw in a bigger screen, some Bluetooth capability (monitor via Android? Fuck, TUNINGON THE SPOT via Android?)



I'd cream all over that.


And $600 would be totally fucking worth it.

[mr.speedy3]

Originally Posted by Roddiy now THIS is something I could get behind. Throw in a bigger screen, some Bluetooth capability (monitor via Android? Fuck, TUNINGON THE SPOT via Android?) I'd cream all over that. And $600 would be totally fucking worth it.

Orrr... they should make ATR mobile... that would hold off many of us.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Roddiy now THIS is something I could get behind. Throw in a bigger screen, some Bluetooth capability (monitor via Android? Fuck, TUNINGON THE SPOT via Android?) I'd cream all over that. And $600 would be totally fucking worth it.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Sent via smokey turbo.

[SofaKingAwesome]

Originally Posted by Roddiy now THIS is something I could get behind. Throw in a bigger screen, some Bluetooth capability (monitor via Android? Fuck, TUNINGON THE SPOT via Android?) I'd cream all over that. And $600 would be totally fucking worth it.

Put on your rain coat if half of that turns you on.

[Cobb Tuning]

Originally Posted by Roddiy So Cobb, I have a question: Why are the APs so expensive? Is it the R&D? is it because of some sort of licensing with the manufacturer of the ECUs? Surely it can't be because of the hardware, unless there's some crazy chip inside there, the thing costs as much as a new computer! I'm not complaining per say(though I do think $600 is a rather high price point, but the AP is pretty much the best solution out there, if I had the money lying around I would happily pay for a new one!) but I would just like to know the reason for so much money.

The price covers a lot of things that we do - but it is mostly there to create and maintain products that our customers enjoy using and upgrading.

The real reverse engineering process is time consuming and expensive. Depending on the platform, there can be anywhere from 3 months to a year+ of breaking into the ECU. Then there is the amount of time analyzing the logic, figuring out how to re-flash it properly, and then design something that can be tunable and sell-able as a finished product. Then you have to factor in the the time spent testing, the time spent on the dyno, and the time/resources spent making both AP Firmware and ATP/ATR.

You are right in that the AP isn't that expensive hardware wise, but your hard earned money is paying for the software inside it. Notice the amount of times the firmware has been updated since its introduction, along with the testing that needs to go into it. In order for us (Cobb) to continue to deliver a product that grows even after you buy it, we have to cover our costs and pay for engineers like me to make that dream happen for the customer.

Even for me to find certain things in the ECU (like the Fuel scalar almost a year ago), it can take a few months to figure out and test it on the dyno. That time and money is justified with the margin of the AP and is directly correlated with the sales. The better the Mazda AP does, the more R&D we can put into it to make it better.

To answer the question of why the Mazda AP is still $595 ( in comparison to Mitsu), its because we have a lot of resources on my end being poured into it. Some for some of the stuff you can see in the latest firmware release, but a lot of it for stuff you haven't seen yet. It's a strong product with a great future ahead of it - and I'm happy to be the one at Cobb to make that happen.

Hope that answers your question.

Thanks,

-David@COBB

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by David@COBB The price covers a lot of things that we do - but it is mostly there to create and maintain products that our customers enjoy using and upgrading. The real reverse engineering process is time consuming and expensive. Depending on the platform, there can be anywhere from 3 months to a year+ of breaking into the ECU. Then there is the amount of time analyzing the logic, figuring out how to re-flash it properly, and then design something that can be tunable and sell-able as a finished product. Then you have to factor in the the time spent testing, the time spent on the dyno, and the time/resources spent making both AP Firmware and ATP/ATR. You are right in that the AP isn't that expensive hardware wise, but your hard earned money is paying for the software inside it. Notice the amount of times the firmware has been updated since its introduction, along with the testing that needs to go into it. In order for us (Cobb) to continue to deliver a product that grows even after you buy it, we have to cover our costs and pay for engineers like me to make that dream happen for the customer. Even for me to find certain things in the ECU (like the Fuel scalar almost a year ago), it can take a few months to figure out and test it on the dyno. That time and money is justified with the margin of the AP and is directly correlated with the sales. The better the Mazda AP does, the more R&D we can put into it to make it better. To answer the question of why the Mazda AP is still $595 ( in comparison to Mitsu), its because we have a lot of resources on my end being poured into it. Some for some of the stuff you can see in the latest firmware release, but a lot of it for stuff you haven't seen yet. It's a strong product with a great future ahead of it - and I'm happy to be the one at Cobb to make that happen. Hope that answers your question. Thanks, -David@COBB

This answers my question perfectly, thanks David!

[aggierandy]

As others have said, its research and development. Its almost like code cracking what they are doing. The ECU is encrypted.

This is actually their claim to fame. ECU decryption. Look at the GT-R.

After that, they are pretty good tuners and an aftermarket hardware developer. But at their core, what separates them from others is their skillz with engine control units. This is what you're paying for. Access to proprietary, protected info. In fact, they have probably had to go to great lengths not to get sued by auto manufacturers (kinda like android hackers).

[manila]

I thought about this...for maybe a few minutes until I went ahead and bought one. Do you want to go faster? If so, just buy one. What a pointless thread.

*if you want to take full advantage of that COBB SRI you're going to need an AP.

[gpower07]

I paid 490$ for my ap. new!

[Cheapspeed]

I got mine for $360 used. Don't think I'd pay 600 for it, there's enough being passed around 2nd hand.

[Tommy]

Specialty software with a small market always costs a lot. Photoshop is $700 and probably has more sales than the AP.

[Bisquick Mehoff]

Originally Posted by Tommy Specialty software with a small market always costs a lot. Photoshop is $700 and probably has more sales than the AP.

I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS

Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by Bisquick Mehoff I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

I don't know a single photographer who has stolen it.

[BlackBandit]

Originally Posted by Bisquick Mehoff I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

If you are a legit business using it for work, you don't ever want to get caught with an unlicensed photoshop. The lawsuit can end your business right then and there.



One of my friends drives an SRT-4 and he would give his left nut to have a $500 tuning solution like the AP. HE's dropped thousands on shit like MBC, Turbo Timer, Standalone ECU, and at least a dozen dyno runs to try to get properly tuned. We're lucky we have this option.

[turboKart]

Originally Posted by Bisquick Mehoff I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

Since I'm not a professshonal, I borrow my software - long live paintshop. Back when it was current, it use to take all the photoshop plugins, like KAI, which I borrowed as well.

[Mistersix]

I think the price is fair for good tuning software and the support Cobb provides. I do wish the hardware was better though. Not even by much, just some simple things like:
Better screen resolution
A bit bigger screen
Monitor 2 parameters at once
And lose the queer shape that fits nothing