Why does your motor blow?

[ptperformance]

So, why do we blow our motors?

Well, its not from over boosting (proven by several).
Its not from to much fuel (DI can not put enough into the cyl's to hydro lock the motor)
The rods are forged (as you will see in the pictures)
The motor design is crap crap crap crap!

Here we go...

We have found that of the dozen or so motors that people have sent us parts on the rods appear to be bent and bending from hydrolocking. This would be impossible with the direct injection and several don't even have WI on thier cars. So the cause, I will get to here soon. The problem is oil control, and the intake filling up with oil on long trips at a particular RPM (cruise at 3000 rpm seems to be the key point that causes the oil build up).

We have the first motor that I have seen with out blowing apart and destroying the rods or block, this gave us a rare opritunity to see what happened. So here it is.

The pictures show that the rods bent, no cast rod will bend like this... so for those that questioned that, they are forged. Now there was zero crank damage and all the bearings checked out good, so how is this possible. I checked the thrust bearing, dead on according to the specs in the book. Its almost like it hydrolocked and then everything was OK, which I have no idea how this is possible but please read on.

During tear down there was oil everywhere, the turbo was leaking oil (inside the turbine housing), intake manifold was leaking oil, even the tops of the pistons had oil on them. I never thought anything about this and just figured it was because we put a hole in the top of the piston, to my suprise there were no holes in the pistons. I never put the two together until I started looking at the pictures, the damn motor hydro locked on oil. But how? We have some ideas but it all comes down to oil control in the motor. There are some things showing that the oil is lighting off in the motor (catching fire in the upper cylinders near the pistons, pictures shown). If that much oil is getting into the combustion chambers, that could be reason for the knock we get under light throttle, or the heavy knock after you get off the freeway or after a long drive. Again, I suspect that there is a bad RPM that causes oil to build up in the intake manifold due to the very very poor design of the PCV system and the oil control in the pan. I will dive into this a little bit, but until we can get a few locals cars running the oil control fix, I don't really want to speculate much on it. The next part will explain more about the oil control issues.

The pistons are showing errosion in the oil control ring land. As you can see by the pictures the pistons are melting (yes melting, which should take around 880 degrees). This melting can only be one thing, diluted fuel in the oil lighting off under pressure. How, I have no idea but its the only way you could get pistons to melt at this point. Thats the only way to get the heat into the pistons in such a small location in order to melt them. The pictures show a good unit vs a bad one and all the pistons had signs of this on the exhaust side. This is bad since I have never in all my years seen something like this. Even nitro and alchy cars don't have melt points this far down the skirts, not only that but none of the ring lands showed any signs of ring blowby or that the heat could be getting to the oil ring from the top of the piston. Its all from under the piston that is causing the light off.

What does all this mean?

One, we need to get the PCV system and oil under control in these motors. We have a few ideas that we are going to test out, but don't really want to discuss them here on the forums. A few locals have heard what I have to say about this and so far they agree. I will have a Ford engineer taking look at these pictures here in the next few days to give me his input as well. He is very smart and does engine dyno cell testing and data applications for motor design and improvment. If anyone has a good idea about what is happening, he will.

The cyl head is still playing a part in the motors going boom, and like I posted 4 months ago its a fix for some of the problems (not all of them but it cuts down on the heat which you can see the rods and crank are blue from heat). The cyl head will also make for better ring seal and keep localized hot spots in the head under control thus keeping a better ring seal on the pistons (this plays into the oil control issues with this motor).

Last, we have plans with 3 locals cars to start testing with full data logging of the changes that we have planned. One car is fairly stock, the others are modded heavily, one with an SST. My car is going to go into a full build status (so much for getting rid of it) and we will be showing you all that the SST can make the power and hope to break the 400 + WHP mark with a shot of spray with a DI meth set up. This is a different thread, so keeping with this one.... I hope you have questions and are looking for a fix like I am.


Pictures are
1. Yes this is a flat bench, and they are all bent
2. Not only did we bend them on the axis of the rod but also the beam and the flat
3. Pretty hey, they are sitting in order from right to left cly 1 to 4
4. These are the two bad ones
5. Again the two worse of the group
6. Scorched and melted below the oil control
7. Another one with melted oil control
8. This is what they are suppose to look like
9. This one is starting to go
10. This the 2nd worse one we could find

[bova]

very interesting

[ptperformance]

I also forgot to mention that the BS assembly (yes it was still in the motor because we were getting ready to sell the car, was in fact sticky at one point in its rotation. I think this is because the rod hit the side of it but not 100% sure on that. BS delete is a must for every MS owner if they are going to up the boost.

One more thing to add, the rods bent in order from worse to less worse based on the firing order and intake valve opening events. This also leads me to belive that the fluid that formed the hydrolock came from the intake so how. The only thing that could be in there is oil, unless my pump is leaking fuel into the motor oil all the sudden (oil level was good when we checked it and the motor oil was clean, didn't smell like fuel).

[yang_jackson]

if this is the case, does it mean all ms3's will eventually 'blow'?

[andrew88]

you are an idiot.. if you have ever actually gone under the car you will realize that their are more fomoco parts that there are mazda. ford sucks plain and simple... im jk lol. about ford that is. there really is alot of ford parts though

[bova]

Originally Posted by andrew88 you are an idiot.. if you have ever actually gone under the car you will realize that their are more fomoco parts that there are mazda. ford sucks plain and simple... im jk lol. about ford that is. there really is alot of ford parts though

um right relevant post?

[Erich]

BTW, those pictures don't do the bending in those rods justice. Seeing them in person my reaction was "Holy Shit"

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by yang_jackson if this is the case, does it mean all ms3's will eventually 'blow'?

I am going to have to say yes but... we are going to be doing some side by side testing and photos to see if parts are the same between years. I suspect that they are and we are all screwed. I think that the driving style plays more of a part on the blown motors then the motor itself. By driving style I don't mean WOT driving, just around town or freeway cruise driving. Check the blown motor thread and you will see that a lot of those motors have blown after a long drive, or getting off the freeway after a drive of XX miles. Its oil control and the hydrolocking is caused from oil getting into the combustion chambers.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Erich BTW, those pictures don't do the bending in those rods justice. Seeing them in person my reaction was "Holy Shit"

Thanks, the pictures never do justice to the damage.

[Haltech]

Very interesting. My question is, if the rods are considered forged, how come this event isnt re-occurring on rebuilds?

Catch cans are not solving the oil problem in these engines either. There has to be a better solution to stop the over oiling and puddling occurring through the intake tract.

Lightnings have a similar problem as these cars. What we did was plugged the passenger side intake hose with a small round piece of metal, little larger then a dime. We then used a 1990-93 Mustang GT 5.0 PVC in the valve covers. Solved the problem. We would blow blue smoke out at startup and pull oil into the intake tract. The worse sign of oil puddling occurs below the intercooler. This occurs during the deceleration process with heavy vac pulling the oil through.

The oil seperator fix is outlined below:

[bova]

....

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Haltech Very interesting. My question is, if the rods are considered forged, how come this event isnt re-occurring on rebuilds? Catch cans are not solving the oil problem in these engines either. There has to be a better solution to stop the over oiling and puddling occurring through the intake tract. Lightnings have a similar problem as these cars. What we did was plugged the passenger side intake hose with a small round piece of metal, little larger then a dime. We then used a 1990-93 Mustang GT 5.0 PVC in the valve covers. Solved the problem. We would blow blue smoke out at startup and pull oil into the intake tract. The worse sign of oil puddling occurs below the intercooler. This occurs during the deceleration process with heavy vac pulling the oil through.

Better quality forgings and higher quality material. Remember not all rods are created equal.

Nope, the cheaper catch cans are not going to work, you will have to spend the money to get a separated can with a media filter built into them. This should help. We are going to be doing a relocate kit for the PCV system that takes the PCV valve out of the side of the block and puts it back up into the valve cover. Very similar to the fix you have outlined here in your post, it might cause a little puff on start up, but the only other option is what we have pictures of here.

I don't think its a heavy vacuum either, its more of a splash and overfill of the current design. The system just cannot keep the oil under control in its current configuration. I will have more to report back on here very soon.

[ptperformance]

Lots of people viewing but not very many posts, interesting.

[JumpingJackson]

W/I Injection = help or hurt this issue?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson W/I Injection = help or hurt this issue?

It will help with cleaning the internals from all the oil, our fix will keep the oil out of the intake and the WI will work with cleaning and keeping the knock under control.

[ptperformance]

Please don't forget to hit the thanks button if you appreciate what we have done so far, thanks.

[MadOzodi]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Lots of people viewing but not very many posts, interesting.

Took a while to read. I noticed on my way to work earlier this week, I was merging from one highway onto another after cruising and when I accelerated I got massive knock...KR reading on my gauge showed 7.3. I actually saw a nice thick cloud of smoke out my rearview mirror. Couldn't tell what color it was cuz my windows are tinted, but it reminded me of diesel exhaust.

To add insult to injury, CELs P2187 and P0455 a day or two later. Thanks for posting your findings. Would you say that once a small "event" happens, there's no way to stop it since the damage is already done?

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Lots of people viewing but not very many posts, interesting.

its friday night

so, how much $$$ for this preventive modding....

[Cosmic3MPS]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Lots of people viewing but not very many posts, interesting.

Anyone looking into these issues deserves our thanks. Your comments make a lot of sense and I think you are on the money. Mine blew about a week ago under the exact circumstances you describe. Driving for about three hours on a highway, slowing down to pass through a small town, accelerating back up on the way out of town in 5th and kaboom! No 4 cylinder and fist sized hole through the block. Oil right through the exhaust and melted piston through the turbo. The event happened under such gentle acceleration that I think there is much more going on here than the 'leaning out' suspicion that has been blamed for so much. Really hope you get to the bottom of this one.

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Lots of people viewing but not very many posts, interesting.

This is probably too technical for most people here. While I understand what you're saying I can't add much because this is my first build. Looks like a good theory though. I hope this issue gets figured out.

[stevessvt]

Would there be any outword tell tale signs of this happening? Like oil level going down over the course of so many miles? I have an 09, will you be looking in to any 09's to see if anything has been corrected on them? How many 09's have popped?

[Scatt Nasty]

this kind of makes sense. I took a road trip to PHX about a week ago, its in the 90's there. After the trip was the first time since owning the car that I heard audible engine knock and hit a 5.9 on the AP.

[ElBartoRex]

Hey PT-

I know you guys have a lot of experience w/ the NSRT-4 and DSMs-- those guys run OCCs with an extra industrial check valve (not an OEM valve but a McMaster/Carr or Grainger) to contain the issue of the PCV leaking under boost. Have you ever done this on a MS3/6 do you think it would make a difference? All I see is MS3 guys running secondary stock PCVs.

I have a McM/Carr viton seal check valve w/ .3psi cracking pressure ready to install with my catch can and I am curious if anyone has done anything like this yet.

What about installing a secondary can on the VC/intake line? Anyone done this yet?

[smakdown61]

Well I can tell you that before I got my catch can (saikou michi) I would get a good amount of part throttle knock and right as I was going WOT I would smoke puff out the exhaust. Ever since I put in the occ, rarely any part throttle knock and zero oil puffs out the exhaust.

[glocK23]

Nice breakdown, although this is pretty much foreign to me!

[serium]

long trips in ms3 ftmfl....take girlfriends car ftmfw

[BaseballD2]

this is great info, so a baffled oil catch can, egr delete oil is still getting in the IM? Even you you clean it frequently?

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Well .. this is good news that we are seeing a likely situation ... but bad news if we can't get a fix.

[bova]

so is this puff of smoke good or bad off start up? cause right now if my car sits for the evening then i start it up the next morning i usually get a puff of smoke.

[I<3Groceries]

Originally Posted by serium long trips in ms3 ftmfl....take girlfriends car ftmfw

LMAO! Note to self: NO ROAD TRIPS!


Where's Whoosh?
He manipulated several of these oil/emissions control apparatuses on his car, did he not?
I knew this stuff was responsible for alot of the KR, but never thought it'd be solely responsible for Zoom Zoom Boom.

[MrMcCrackin]

interesting - here for additional results and possible fix

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

No road trips is right ... I was planning on taking the speed for an 8 hour drive to Minneapolis ... but now it'll be the wifes santa fe.

[Ghost Rider]

i would suspect that many people drive their disi mzr engined cars for long trips at cruising speeds. should not there be more blown motors, especially with the length of time some of these cars have been out (ms6)? if this is truly a design flaw on all of these engines we should see much more blown motors, yes? I would think with the number of so equipped vehicles this would be more prevalent.

[stevessvt]

what's the number of stock or nearly stock cars popping? All I have is a Hybrid BOV and second cat delete.

[Crossbow]

would suspect that many people drive their disi mzr engined cars for long trips at cruising speeds. should not there be more blown motors, especially with the length of time some of these cars have been out (ms6)? if this is truly a design flaw on all of these engines we should see much more blown motors, yes? I would think with the number of so equipped vehicles this would be more prevalent.

I would assume that if there is a flaw, certain types of modding will "accelerate" the effect of said flaw, and increase the chance of it happening.

There has been a few "stock" engine blown claims, but we all know how easy it is to "demod" a car rather quickly. For all we know some of those characters were running 20+ psi outta the stock turbo. Plus haven't heard of any of those issues in a few long time.

My questions are of course...

Was one of the car running the windage tray and a catch can? Weren't those two items supposed to help resolve oiling issues? And if one of these car's had the BSD, that's #2 blown BSD motor that we know of.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by I<3Groceries LMAO! Note to self: NO ROAD TRIPS! Where's Whoosh? He manipulated several of these oil/emissions control apparatuses on his car, did he not? I knew this stuff was responsible for alot of the KR, but never thought it'd be solely responsible for Zoom Zoom Boom.

i'm here watching all this get figured out "again" lol

no offense John, but the oil in the mani is an old news kind of thing
a correct OCC with extra pcv or check valve and deleted egr kept my intake clean as a whistle
I never had knock on my no tune set up
additionally, the reason I opened up the rear of the valve cover and vented it to a different OCC (vented/filter on top) is because I didn't want any oily vapor entering the intake tract when boosting as I was at or above 20psi

no BS it's a full time job to keep this engine clean
I cleaned or replaced plugs often, changed my fuel sheared oil every 2500 miles with PP and kept my OCC empty all the time (every weekend)

[Ghost Rider]

whoosh, were you fully built? did you push your car?

I think there are too many people who are abusing their modded cars with out any noticeable issues, some with high mileage, to just say, oh, its all engines and it is a design flaw.

[bova]

deadman just took his car on a 6 hour road trip a month ago and was just fine.

and yes whoosh was fully bolted.

[m4tic]

hey whoosh..... i remember you doing this.... i need to find your threads, and where can i get a egr block off plate?

Originally Posted by whoosh i'm here watching all this get figured out "again" lol no offense John, but the oil in the mani is an old news kind of thing a correct OCC with extra pcv or check valve and deleted egr kept my intake clean as a whistle I never had knock on my no tune set up additionally, the reason I opened up the rear of the valve cover and vented it to a different OCC (vented/filter on top) is because I didn't want any oily vapor entering the intake tract when boosting as I was at or above 20psi no BS it's a full time job to keep this engine clean I cleaned or replaced plugs often, changed my fuel sheared oil every 2500 miles with PP and kept my OCC empty all the time (every weekend)

[TrueSleeper]

Originally Posted by ptperformance So, why do we blow our motors? The problem is oil control, and the intake filling up with oil on long trips at a particular RPM (cruise at 3000 rpm seems to be the key point that causes the oil build up). If that much oil is getting into the combustion chambers, that could be reason for the knock we get under light throttle, or the heavy knock after you get off the freeway or after a long drive. Again, I suspect that there is a bad RPM that causes oil to build up in the intake manifold due to the very very poor design of the PCV system and the oil control in the pan.

Hi to all.

I´m new here so haven´t read other theads about this knockin problem.

I live in finland and we have all togeher about 50 Mazdaspeed 3:s and about same of the Mazdaspeed 6 (they call them 3MPS and 6MPS here).

I´we been logging knock retard among other stuff with my dashhawk, and driving on a motorway in 6:th gear I get Knock retard between 2 to 6 on cruise control at 3000 to 4000 RPM. But when I touch the gas pedal or brake, knockin is instantly at 0.

I haven´t seen any smoke at all when knockin but I´m little consern about this.

We haven´t had eny motor breakdowns here at my knowing, but does this sound similar what U guys are having.

I know there are some differents between our and your models.

Have there been any Mazdaspeeds blowing engine that are under warranty?

I would think that Mazda would fix this kind of problem very quickly if something that big is wrong in our engines?