Stock MS3 genPu tune results: 33whp / 50wtq increase. No bolt-ons.

[Don]

Ohhhhh yea. Dumb on my part lol

[Don]

ok still wont let me open it with ATR.. error pops up that says "invalid base map file. please verify vehicle and vendor of the map"

[btstarcher]

You've had ATR installed and working right? And you're not just opening the map; you're opening ATR and loading the map?

[Don]

Originally Posted by btstarcher You've had ATR installed and working right? And you're not just opening the map; you're opening ATR and loading the map?

Yea, it's worked before and yes I'm opening the program then trying to load the map. Maybe I should send cobb another request or do you think it's because my car is a 2010?

[btstarcher]

Shouldn't make any difference. I'm not sure why it isn't working.

[Don]

yea still not working. ohh well

[texasboy21]

Anyone running the tune? How is it?

[Don]

Originally Posted by texasboy21 Anyone running the tune? How is it?

I tried. My accessport and atr won't allow me to do anything with it

[texasboy21]

Originally Posted by Don I tried. My accessport and atr won't allow me to do anything with it

I have a pump that im getting ready to install. I will see if I can load it into ATR.

[BAT-man]

Other folks have been able to open and use the maps. You have to fiddle with the ATR a bit.

[texasboy21]

Originally Posted by BAT-man Other folks have been able to open and use the maps. You have to fiddle with the ATR a bit.

Seeing as this will be my first time loading a map into ATR, can you offer any assistance or tips? I have the Cobb ATR pdf, but its all a bit strange until you do it first hand.

[Don]

You're supposed to be able to load it to ATR rename it and load it to your accessport.. This way you will be able to load it.. Personally it won't let me even load it to ATR. I stopped trying because it was pissing me off haha

[daafisch]

@texasboy21; Just open it with ATR and re-save it. That's all. I just suggest either renaming it or saving it to a different directory so you don't overwrite the original file.

FWIW I had no problem loading this map in ATR.

[Don]

Originally Posted by daafisch @texasboy21; Just open it with ATR and re-save it. That's all. I just suggest either renaming it or saving it to a different directory so you don't overwrite the original file. FWIW I had no problem loading this map in ATR.

What year is your speed3
Edit-nevermind I just seen your sig

[PolishMs3]

So is this map only safe to run on a stock car? I currently am running a stg 3 ots map and I like the timing advance on it, feels like it has a lot more power but im looking for a more linear gain and not just in the 4k rpm range.

[texasboy21]

Originally Posted by PolishMs3 So is this map only safe to run on a stock car? I currently am running a stg 3 ots map and I like the timing advance on it, feels like it has a lot more power but im looking for a more linear gain and not just in the 4k rpm range.

Its very clearing explained the map is for a stock car with an upgraded HPFP.

[BAT-man]

Originally Posted by PolishMs3 So is this map only safe to run on a stock car? I currently am running a stg 3 ots map and I like the timing advance on it, feels like it has a lot more power but im looking for a more linear gain and not just in the 4k rpm range.

My tune was, as stated for a COMPLETELY STOCK gen2 MS3.

However, you should NOT run a Stage 3 map on a COMPLETELY STOCK car. Ever. That tune was never meant to apply to stock parameters, and unless you modified it severely, those timing changes aren't doing much for you, and may in fact rob you of power and make the car prone to detonation. There are specific mods Cobb lists as required for Stage 3, and the tune needs to be further refined after that.

[PolishMs3]

Originally Posted by BAT-man My tune was, as stated for a COMPLETELY STOCK gen2 MS3. However, you should NOT run a Stage 3 map on a COMPLETELY STOCK car. Ever. That tune was never mean to apply to stock parameters, and unless you modified it severely, those timing changes aren't doing much for you, and may in fact rob you of power and make the car prone to detonation. There are specific mods Cobb lists as required for Stage 3, and the tune needs to be further refined after that.

My car isn't stock I was just wondering what you would need to change on YOUR map in order for it to work well with a couple basic bolt ons.

Originally Posted by texasboy21 Its very clearing explained the map is for a stock car with an upgraded HPFP.

I understand what was explained...maybe I should have phrased my question a little better. I'm just seeing if it would be bad to run this map if the car ISNT stock.

[BAT-man]

Originally Posted by PolishMs3 My car isn't stock I was just wondering what you would need to change on YOUR map in order for it to work well with a couple basic bolt ons. I understand what was explained...maybe I should have phrased my question a little better. I'm just seeing if it would be bad to run this map if the car ISNT stock.

Heh. Those changes you speak of. They are called a tune - They are very possible I've since added a 3" intake and have mainly updated the mafcal to accommodate. The rest of the tune stayed the same, save for some additional smoothing out here and there.

[aznpersuazn]

Originally Posted by daafisch @texasboy21; Just open it with ATR and re-save it. That's all. I just suggest either renaming it or saving it to a different directory so you don't overwrite the original file. FWIW I had no problem loading this map in ATR.

This. The difference is mind blowing.

[Shwaykid]

@Silaramic; read up homie

[MS3Shadow]

@Silaramic; get more fasts.

sent from my Nexus 6P

[6kipps]

Bat-man,
After taking a look at the latest version of the map and comparing to what I've seen in the Cobb and Corksport maps and the guidance in the noob tuning guide, I have a couple of questions:
1) AFRs. It appears that your tune runs a little richer overall. Is this purely to be conservative under WOT?
2) Fuel pressure. Even though you're running with upgraded internals, the pressures remain stock. Why not run higher?
3) Waste Gate. The WGDC curve you are using is very different than the others I've seen, where a lot is demanded early on, tapers a bit in the 3-5k rpm range, then climbs again. What's the thought/theory behind it?

My self tuning experience is fairly limited and I've followed the MSF tuning guides and tips fairly closely. Just want to expand my knowledge in the realm of the possible. Thanks in advance!

[speedfreak44]

I haven't reviewed the tune but

1. Afr ranging from 11.3-12.0 have been seen to do nearly the same power output on our engines
2. Fuel pressure does not gain anything not even injector head room
3. High wgdc at start is for spool up then taper to hold desired boost and increased again to keep holding desired boost

[sharksinspace]

I'm a complete tuning n00b, so please bear with me on this dumb question -- I have Corksport SRI/TIP, BPV and HPFP, no exhaust work done at the moment other than a reso delete which is purely for sound...would you foresee any benefits/issues in running this B.1.7.9 map over COBB's OTS Stage 1+? I have the 91 octane Stage 1+ on my car at the moment (though I always fill up with 93), and am just wondering how this would compare until I've done a couple more mods worthy of an e-tune. I also actually drive a genjuan, for what that's worth, but I presume it doesn't really make much of a difference. Thanks!

[6kipps]

Speedfreak44 please take a look at the map:

1. Afr ranging from 11.3-12.0 have been seen to do nearly the same power output on our engines

***Max enrich and knock tables have AFR's at 10.3 (for example)***

2. Fuel pressure does not gain anything not even injector head room

***Why then do the tuning guides and OTS maps go beyond stock pressure?***

3. High wgdc at start is for spool up then taper to hold desired boost and increased again to keep holding desired boost

***WGDC at WOT starts around 36 and progressively climbs to around 90, which is almost exactly the opposite of the limited "conventional" tuning I've seen.

The points you bring up are consistent with what I've read and am using philosophically in my self-tunes. Just trying to figure out why they are what they are.

[ThizSpeed3]

anybody try the Bat-man tune? i see peoples downloaded it any feedback from you guys?

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by ThizSpeed3 anybody try the Bat-man tune? i see peoples downloaded it any feedback from you guys?

Please tell me you are asking because you want to flash it to your car...

[6kipps]

Not yet. I'm mid-stream on another self-tune after changing to one-step colder plugs and internals. Once I get those sorted, I'm going to give Bat-man's a try.

I've looked at his map several times to see how it compares to my current map and have narrowed down my curiousity to the WGDC response.

[BAT-man]

Sorry been away for a bit and looks like Speedfreak answered for me but I'll try to fill in the additional blanks:

Originally Posted by 6kipps Speedfreak44 please take a look at the map: ***Max enrich and knock tables have AFR's at 10.3 (for example)*** This is done purely for safety reasons, as you can see I target 11.3 in the WOT tables, but in case of knock, I want to allow the car to run as rich as 10.3. Max enrich in this case has nothing to do with target AFR under WOT, only with allowable AFRs when KR is present. Though I suppose you could use it to set a ceiling on all and any AFRs if you set it higher than your highest targeted AFR (say 17... that'd be nuts though). ***Why then do the tuning guides and OTS maps go beyond stock pressure?*** I see no reason to target any pressure higher than that required to keep the AFRs where they need to be. I would rather not wear out the pump, and AFAIK higher pressures are only used in cases where you're trying to jam more fuel into the engine but your IDC values are already maxed out. To me that's a bad scenario anyway - it means you need aux fuelling, not crazy high presures which the rest fo the system may not have been built to support. ***WGDC at WOT starts around 36 and progressively climbs to around 90, which is almost exactly the opposite of the limited "conventional" tuning I've seen. I don't know what conventional tuning you've seen, but logic (and logs) tell me that to limit boost in the low range, lower WGDCs are required, and they need to be set to higher amounts to keep the boost levels high at high rpms. My logic, btw, was to enter values that are still too low and let the ECU try to correct UP (only slightly as I set max correction pretty low too), rather than set them higher than needed and have the ECU correct DOWN. My approach is pure conservatism. And I still make the power I want. By the way, with a 3" intake (and now 3.5") my WGDCs have dropped significantly starting 2,500 rpm, between 6 to 11 units lower from 2,500-7,000, now that the car has less trouble breathing and the turbo isn't struggling to make the targeted boost (I'm finally boosting 17.5 across the rpm range, holding 17 at top end and peaking to 18.5 in the 3.5-4k range). This is WITH much decreased WGDC values. The points you bring up are consistent with what I've read and am using philosophically in my self-tunes. Just trying to figure out why they are what they are.

I hear ya, I'm the same way, I like to know the "why" behind the how.

[BAT-man]

Originally Posted by sharksinspace I'm a complete tuning n00b, so please bear with me on this dumb question -- I have Corksport SRI/TIP, BPV and HPFP, no exhaust work done at the moment other than a reso delete which is purely for sound...would you foresee any benefits/issues in running this B.1.7.9 map over COBB's OTS Stage 1+? I have the 91 octane Stage 1+ on my car at the moment (though I always fill up with 93), and am just wondering how this would compare until I've done a couple more mods worthy of an e-tune. I also actually drive a genjuan, for what that's worth, but I presume it doesn't really make much of a difference. Thanks!

I would not run my tune while using a SRI/TIP - I had to retune when I switched to a 3" TIP/Intake.
That brings me to a point I want to make - A stock tune is super conservative and dumps the AFRs into the high 9s at WOT and high rpm. It's hard to blow it up, but I would still not run a TIP/SRI with it, because it seems like one can never be too sure of where the lean spots may be due t this change. The Stage 1 is less conservative. Hence, I would def. not run it. I would get tuned with those mods in mind, but make sure you have a tuner who doesn't just tune WOT, but also part throttle and cruise. Those took the longest for me to dial in.

My 2 cents - Having spent a great deal of time dialing in part throttle and realizing how different it will be from car to car, I would presume that few tuners ever really focus on that, because it simply takes too long to do say 40+ logs and runs and retunes, vs. WOT tuning which requires maybe 10 logs/tunes at the best for most of the folks. Which is why I advertise self-tuning. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[6kipps]

Thanks for filling in your logic for me - makes sense now.

The WGDC profiles I've seen in the OTS maps and the noob tuning guides usuallt open to 100% from 0-2500rpm(ish), decrease mid-range to maintain desired boost, then climb back to help in the higher rpm's.

As an engineer, I've never been a fan of operating a system at max capacity/capability because it leaves no margin for compensation. Anything I can do in my maps to only use what's required and leave safety margins in place is a bene.

Time to get back to work and stop gaffing off...

[g00s3y]

No one should be running any tune that hasn't been calibrated for their car, and their car only.

There is no reason to run a tune someone else made for someone else's car. Doing so is stupid, and will only lead to bad things happening.

[6kipps]

Generally, I agree with you. But, we routinely load OTS maps into our cars from COBB, CS, and others and assume the pro tuners haven't goobered anything up. OTS maps appear to be a common point to depart from as we start our individual self-tuning journeys.

I finished 90% of the re-tuning I wanted to get done post-plug and internal install (still haven't gotten boost back where I want it). I did several logged runs, then modified the map with ONLY the WGDC profile from this thread to see what would happen. The only mods to the profile I did were to smooth it into my existing WGDC (which I've tweaked for fuel economy in the >40% throttle realm using examples from bnoon's thread) AND decrease the highest values by 10% to give me a little extra cushion on top. My car is a DD.

Attached are the best before and after logs with the corresponding VD. The runs were performed over the same stretch of road in about the same conditions. There is some error induced because I always use the same weight values to minimize additional variable impacts (and because I'm a little too lazy to compute it).

Here they are:
v1.6 6_13 datalog2.csv

v1.6 6_10 datalog2.csv

VD Output.pdf

In my limited experiment, there is a good gain in HP and TQ. What stood out to me was the smoother increase in boost, maintaining of boost, and the smoother increase of WG. The car also accelerates smoother and the power addition is not nearly as abrupt.

The only target not met in either map was boost (which is where I'm going to focus my efforts for the near term). Still learning, but I now have more methods at my disposal as I keep playing with the car.

Hope this helps!

[BAT-man]

Glad it helped. Getting rid of that blue boost bump around 3-3.5k has been one of my goals with the tune, and it looks like it's working on other cars. Very happy to see that. I am however surprised to see a whp/tq gain in that same spot, given lower boost. Unless you messed with AFRs and timing, which you said you didn't it's probably a matter of the conditions.

[6kipps]

In my base map I have messed around with the AFRs from 1500-3500 rpm and up to around .5ish on the load, running as high as 17.1 for fuel economy while cruising. So, I have a divot in my boost, fuel, and WGDC to help out. I'm still a little inconsistent in my logging technique, so it takes 3-4 runs at a time to get one decent set of data. What I believe also helps is the improvement of building boost your profile seems to have done in this particular situation. When I get home later, I'll post the recent map for comparison.

[6kipps]

Here's the two maps for comparison.

Chris Stage 1.6.ptm

Chris Stage 1.7a.ptm

After going back to review again, I evidently did a little adjustment in the AFR around the .13/.19 load at 2000-3000rpm. However, I don't think that minor adjust would account for the output changes. I would attribute some to user (me) error in datalogging, consistent WOT runs, and data input into VD (using the same weight number).

At this point, I'm more interested in achieving my targets in the map than hp/tq numbers, which I view as a method to assess trends.

[itslogics]

Wow very nice info here.

[Reiketsu35]

Is this Map safe to use on a stock genpu with cobb sri and corksport axleback, reso delete?
Thanks

[6kipps]

I wouldn't suggest it. I installed HPFP internals and one step colder plugs prior to building/running on these maps. When I built these maps (now about 10 iterations old), I incorporated Bat-mans methodology (not cut and paste values) to the characteristics of my existing maps (including my MAF cal, which is unique to each car).

I'm not a pro-tuner, I just read a lot and carefully/sequentially change my maps, so there may be things in my tables that aren't quite right.

What I would suggest:
1) Purchase/install HPFP internals - the money and time are worth it. Chasing increased power without these is a blown engine waiting to happen.
2) If you are self-tuning, read/re-read Noddy's guide to tuning (I always catch another tidbit when I re-visit), then adjust your WGDC to conceptually match what Bat-man is working off of and go from there. This is an iterative process, so take it slow and methodically. Self-tuning isn't hard, but it takes time and patience.
3) If you're uncomfortable working the tables in a map, pay a professional to built one that meets your goals.