going pre turbo meth injection

[dooderek]

thats right bitches

pre

turbo

meth

injection


dont think anyone is actually running this setup on the ms platform so ill go ahead and do something useful for once and break the ice.

if come into interesting observations. when i log during the day my g/s drop roughly ~30 grams compared to night. IAT's are maybe 20-10 degree's of difference. and we all know that turbos lose their efficiency when the air its compressing gets to hot right? aka moving to the right side of teh island. this should help some of those e85 dudes maxing out injectors on the stock turblows.

ill be using DO shit. ive used parts from labonte/coolingmist/snowperformance/DO and i have to say DO's the only product that has yet to fail. i dont vouch for products i dont use, but ive been running their check valve and fittings for months now no hiccups whatsoever. ill vouch for labonte controllers but they went under sooo poo.

parts should be in shortly i already had a meth kit so all i needed was a d01 nozzle holder (i bought 2 cuz i ghetto fabed my other one) and Y fitting. so we shall see gents we shall fucking see

@phate

[phate]

Thanks for the mention. I've now talked to a few companies about doing this, but I'm not ready to take the plunge, just yet. Hopefully, you pick up some airflow by doing this

[dooderek]

its ok clint ill fuck up my car first, plus my turbo cost bout the same as a smokey k04

[UnknownSuperhero]

The Internet Approves!

Where Do I Position My Water Injection Nozzles

[dooderek]

this may also allievate some surging issue as well. we shall see

[Dust]

Check valve or solenoid for the pre-turbo nozzle?

[dooderek]

i run both, solenoid pre pump and check valve before the Y according to physics i shouldnt leak, if the solenoid and check valve are closed itll be like holding your finger over a straw, no water should leak out if any, plus vaccum from the car shouldnt be strong enough to pull that much fluid

[Dust]

Can I recommend that you use the solenoid after the Y and before the preturbo nozzle, and stick the check valve before the post turbo nozzle? I had what you are currently suggesting, without the solenoid pre-pump, and vacuum, and gravity, would suck all of the fluid out of the hose after the check valve. It caused stumbling, and the car to die a few times. Not to mention how bad it must have been on the turbo. I know it will take more work, but I think that your turbo will thank you. I understand your straw analogy, but you will still have 2 openings, at different pressures.

[dooderek]

ive been running this setup before. i may consider buying another CV and putting them before each nozzle but the solenoid stays pre pump!

[SLOWHATCH]

In for results. Good luck. Seems promising.

[dooderek]

lewk what we haz here

[SLOWHATCH]

Can't this be simplified and install the nozzle into the tih?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Derigo dont think anyone is actually running this setup on the ms platform so ill go ahead and do something useful for once and break the ice.

Wrong.
Been running a 0.75 nozzle pre terboh for a while now.
Sorry to spoil your glory.

[dooderek]

keyword "think"

and also. fuck you, i wanted that glory!!!!!1111

please share your results

[YZF-R6]

Im not trying to sound like a smartass but am I seriously curious... Isnt this going to be very hard on the compressor wheel?

[dooderek]

potentially good sir, potentially. however especially with full meth and the fine spray from small nozzle there should a decreased chance of impeller damage.

[TRex]

tiny little droplets hitting the turbine at high speed.......sounds.....unwise.....

[dooderek]

SHUN THE NONBELIEVER

[phate]

SSHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

[dooderek]

Originally Posted by phate SSHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

if your still awake you must be drunk!!!

[Hamilton69]

cant wait to see how this goes, nator socal is bringin the shit....twin turbo's, pre turbo meth (who doesnt like meth?) sounds like more fun than a one legged hooker

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Derigo keyword "think" and also. fuck you, i wanted that glory!!!!!1111 please share your results

Except for ridiculously low IAT's there is really not much to it.
I use it mainly to keep everything running cool during road racing. For street driving it is disconnected. That's why you see that stud sticking out of the push lock. It's a blind piece of hose.
I do not use it to increase power output via higher timing / boost.

Originally Posted by TRex tiny little droplets hitting the turbine at high speed.......sounds.....unwise.....

I am sure you mean the compressor wheel. Not turbine. The pic I posted is my intake. Not exhaust manifold. Lol.
And no. It's not unwise.
All large bore diesel engine turbochargers have water injection pre turbo for cleaning purposes. It's usually engaged every 48 to 72 after continuous operation by dumping water a few inches before the compressor wheel . Although there is wear to the leading edge of the impeller veins after about 40K to 50K running hours, the creep and fatigue damage to the alloy due to regular operation is of more concern than the wear from the water. Wear is minimal.

[Mchart]

I'm not quite sure why more people aren't running it this way to begin with. It seems like it is easier to install then post turbo, and it makes more sense to me to do it pre-turbo side to begin with.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Tomas Except for ridiculously low IAT's there is really not much to it. I use it mainly to keep everything running cool during road racing. For street driving it is disconnected. That's why you see that stud sticking out of the push lock. It's a blind piece of hose. I do not use it to increase power output via higher timing / boost. I am sure you mean the compressor wheel. Not turbine. The pic I posted is my intake. Not exhaust manifold. Lol. And no. It's not unwise. All large bore diesel engine turbochargers have water injection pre turbo for cleaning purposes. It's usually engaged every 48 to 72 after continuous operation by dumping water a few inches before the compressor wheel . Although there is wear to the leading edge of the impeller veins after about 40K to 50K running hours, the creep and fatigue damage to the alloy due to regular operation is of more concern than the wear from the water. Wear is minimal.

Tomas,

When you posted in the e85 thread that you were knocking, even with e85, were you using this set-up?

Also how did your safe seals work out?

Did it stop your kr?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Tomas, When you posted in the e85 thread that you were knocking, even with e85, were you using this set-up? Also how did your safe seals work out? Did it stop your kr?

Hey Rob,

Sorry to report that I haven't installed the seals yet. When I took out the IM, after porting it, I did not have the time to also do the seals.
I did not have the pre-turbo nozzle hooked up when reporting the KR in the E85 thread. It was installed but not hooked up.
I have other issues to deal with at the moment with the car so I can't say whether the KR is still there or not.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Tomas Hey Rob, Sorry to report that I haven't installed the seals yet. When I took out the IM, after porting it, I did not have the time to also do the seals. I did not have the pre-turbo nozzle hooked up when reporting the KR in the E85 thread. It was installed but not hooked up. I have other issues to deal with at the moment with the car so I can't say whether the KR is still there or not.

@Tomas - Would you be able to do some testing for this setup? We aren't looking to turn up boost or increase timing because of it, or lower BAT's. We are looking to make the turbo "grow" just a bit. Could you grab some runs with the pre-turbo injection on and off, so we can get an idea if there is an increase in airflow because of it?

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

In for win! Very interested in doing this myself.

[dooderek]

Another threads thunder stolen

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by phate @Tomas - Would you be able to do some testing for this setup? We aren't looking to turn up boost or increase timing because of it, or lower BAT's. We are looking to make the turbo "grow" just a bit. Could you grab some runs with the pre-turbo injection on and off, so we can get an idea if there is an increase in airflow because of it?

Originally Posted by Derigo Another threads thunder stolen

HAHAHA. didn't mean to steal your thunder.
What nozzle size are you going to use? You said D01 nozzle holder?

I am having issues calibrating my MAF curve with the 4" intake. I also have a boost leak somewhere I can't find. In addition to this, I took off my crankshaft position sensor due to a code I threw thinking it was kapputt when it wasnt. So now I have to get a timing peg and align the sensor. Not sure when I'll be able to run some tests but if I am done before Derigo hooks up his China charger + meth cooler mod I'll post a couple of pulls with and sans pre terboh juicer.

Oh btw. Now that I remember. I am on a load based map so cooler IATs won't mean I will flow more. IIRC it just ran less boost to get to the same load / g/s.

[dooderek]

got the meth installed with the help of good ol jordan (keefover)

intake out, staring at the whale penis


OT, but my valve cover filter catching all that nasty shit (sitting in meth)



compressor inspection prior to install



one day when you become baller as me, youll have an rx7 as your work bench too


my old nozzle (chinkus rigged)


meth flowing along the charge pipe, in this pic its actually going away from the engine (surge time)



flowing towards the engine




solenoid




testing this shit out



pre turbo nozzle, sanded down to where it meets the pipe and some liquid thread sealant




pre tb




__________________________________________________ ________________________


after a run, took the intake apart for some inspections

hard to tell from the pic but you can almost see the spiral pattern from the left over dye as it sucked into the turbo. pretty cool



turbo after




__________________________________________________ ________________________


results

Log 102 is no pre turbo meth
Log 103 is with pre turbo meth

if you look you can see that the 102 "without meth" flowed slightly more than 103 "with meth" even though on 103 i left off a few rpms quicker.

heres my theory. the lower "recorded" flow i believe is attributed to the higher intake temps from 103. notice there is a 8 degree difference from 103 and 102.

if anyone can enlighten me on how the ecu calc's maf g/s i would be most appreciative. most certain intake temps defitnatly play a factor and considering how theres no IAT post turbo if i was infact flowing more there wouldnt be a way of me knowing unless i mounted the maf somewhere to make post turbo.

and finally here are my vd dyno results. now before anyone says shit this is only ONE run. i am NOT making a conclusive statement. this is just data that has been currently collected. VD is known to have alot of different variables effecting the graph. these 3 graphs were done on the same road. 103 and 102 are the same map but 103 with pre turbo meth. the last one was a previous map with slightly lower timing.



update yall as soon as i gets moar data!

[wolly6973]

That was with 100% meth, right?

[Chimmike]

your engine bay looks like shit.

good numbers gain though

[Ziggo]

BATs are what you need to pay attention to. g/s is calculated directly from the MAF sensor, which is also where the IAT is read from.


Zigatapatalka

[phate]

Originally Posted by Ziggo BATs are what you need to pay attention to. g/s is calculated directly from the MAF sensor, which is also where the IAT is read from. Zigatapatalka

We aren't doing this to lower BAT's. We're doing this to watch the change in airflow by evaporating meth before the compressor.

I'll take a look at the logs later on my other computer!

[IshiKage]

Props OP for making a thread and for being 2nd to go pre ign meth. oh, and @Tomas is the fuckin Man

[dooderek]

Screw you tomas!!!!a

[dooderek]

yes 100%

mike can i have your dick

anyone got a good idea how to test for increased g/s? i suppose mounting the maf sensor 1 foot post turbo would show the change in air temps and possibly reflect a better g/s.

only other thing is just get on a roller dyno and do a couple with and without pre turbo wmi.

haha didnt expect you to reply early clint, still thought youd be in your drunken stupor

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by Derigo y anyone got a good idea how to test for increased g/s? i suppose mounting the maf sensor 1 foot post turbo would show the change in air temps and possibly reflect a better g/s. only other thing is just get on a roller dyno and do a couple with and without pre turbo wmi.

I'm not so sure the increased g/s really matters if there's more power being made. g/s isn't totally definining power.

What you're doing is making the turbo more efficient with the BAT's as mentioned before.

Shit....................................this brings up a potentially better point:

What if a d.05 pre-turbo is more effective than, say, a d03-04 pre-throttle body for decreasing BATs? You'd end up consuming less methanol for the same drop in BAT's.............hmmmmmm

[dooderek]

Originally Posted by chimmike I'm not so sure the increased g/s really matters if there's more power being made. g/s isn't totally definining power. What you're doing is making the turbo more efficient with the BAT's as mentioned before. Shit....................................this brings up a potentially better point: What if a d.05 pre-turbo is more effective than, say, a d03-04 pre-throttle body for decreasing BATs? You'd end up consuming less methanol for the same drop in BAT's.............hmmmmmm

but in this equation i am more concerned about "flow" than power. also running pre turbo nozzles will not make a charge cooler than a large one pre tb at the same time too much meth pre compressor will make an intercooler obsolete or even make it heat up the charge

[phate]

Originally Posted by Derigo yes 100% mike can i have your dick anyone got a good idea how to test for increased g/s? i suppose mounting the maf sensor 1 foot post turbo would show the change in air temps and possibly reflect a better g/s. only other thing is just get on a roller dyno and do a couple with and without pre turbo wmi. haha didnt expect you to reply early clint, still thought youd be in your drunken stupor

You'll be able to see a change in flow, if there is one, simply by looking at MAF g/s between the runs. That g/s figure is extremely important, as it is how fueling is calculated. Any change will be seen there.

Originally Posted by chimmike I'm not so sure the increased g/s really matters if there's more power being made. g/s isn't totally definining power. What you're doing is making the turbo more efficient with the BAT's as mentioned before. Shit....................................this brings up a potentially better point: What if a d.05 pre-turbo is more effective than, say, a d03-04 pre-throttle body for decreasing BATs? You'd end up consuming less methanol for the same drop in BAT's.............hmmmmmm

What's the difference between say 300g/s @ 75° post turbo meth vs 300g/s @ 75° pre-turbo meth? I'll venture a guess and say nothing except the amount of methanol it took to get there.




Now, if we see a change in hp, but no change in airflow or BAT's, what can we attribute it to? The extra meth we are injecting? IDK but that initial result looks promising.

@Derigo, can you grab like 5 or 10 runs with each set up (pre-turbo vs no pre-turbo)? We can average the runs and get a better idea in vd if there actually was power gained. Like you said, lots of variables in vd, but an average over 10 runs should give us a very good idea what is going on.