Will this work???

[mazdas4me]

Searched, could not find anything to answer my questions, so let me know if this will work?

Would like to be able to add a bit of extra boost every once in a while. I am boosting at about 16.8 psi right now. The spring/ball type MBC never work that great and seem to spike due to having to overcome spring pressure greater than wastegate spring to achieve boost, which almost always creates a high boost spike before settling. Not very safe...

Next is the Bleed type MBC's that bleed off boost so the wastegate does not see as much boost, thus increasing boost. Problem is you are bleeding metered air, and usually leak and suck un metered air in at idle causing a lean condition. Not the best way...

I came up with this diagram which uses a very light spring/ball just as a check valve so when at idle, no vacuum can be sucked through, skewing idle. Also, I took the normally vented to atmosphere line and put it in the BOV hose back to the turbo, so no air is un meteed. Also, should be a nice and smooth boost transition since there are no restrictions to overcome in the boost line to wastegate.

Anyone running, or have ran MBC's on their Speed's, please chime in and shed some light!

Thanks!

[Agent_Orange]

An AP would work also.

trololol

[mazdas4me]

Alright, well I am just going to try it out and see what happens. Worst case, I put it back to stock. I built a one way 3 psi check valve, and I have an ebay bleed off type controller which I will bleed back to intake.

Will post results...

[mituc]

Adjustable boost bleed? It's just like you'd stiffen up the spring in your BPV. This will do nothing else than destroying your turbo.
The metered air that you say it's bled out is actually bled into the intake post MAF. That keeps the turbo spinning a bit when the throttle is closed.

So do you want more boost? Get a custom tuning application (Cobb AP, Versatuner). Want even more boost? Go big turbo and 3BAR MAP sensor + supporting mods.

Best case scenario, if you will be able to increase the boost by your method (by making the turbo creep a bit, and surge when you let off the accel pedal) you will run into boost/load cut conditions.

Also, Hypertech is using the factory timing tables which are very conservative once you up the load/boost. They are actually way too conservative, your engine will just spit fire out of the exhaust and the gases that are supposed to make you power are being let out off of the cylinders.

So no, don't do it.

P.S.: Hypertech is a load based tune. You may see up to 19PSI of boost and/or load of 1.85-1.90, which ever will happen first.

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by mituc Adjustable boost bleed? It's just like you'd stiffen up the spring in your BPV. This will do nothing else than destroying your turbo. The metered air that you say it's bled out is actually bled into the intake post MAF. That keeps the turbo spinning a bit when the throttle is closed. So do you want more boost? Get a custom tuning application (Cobb AP, Versatuner). Want even more boost? Go big turbo and 3BAR MAP sensor + supporting mods. Best case scenario, if you will be able to increase the boost by your method (by making the turbo creep a bit, and surge when you let off the accel pedal) you will run into boost/load cut conditions. Also, Hypertech is using the factory timing tables which are very conservative once you up the load/boost. They are actually way too conservative, your engine will just spit fire out of the exhaust and the gases that are supposed to make you power are being let out off of the cylinders. So no, don't do it. P.S.: Hypertech is a load based tune. You may see up to 19PSI of boost and/or load of 1.85-1.90, which ever will happen first.

No, Bypass valve source is untouched. When I lift, Recirc valve functions normal with no restrictions. I have it all apart and decided to go a different route with the routing. Instead of bypassing EBC, I am going to make it a Hybrid Boost Controller, utilizing the stock EBC, and a custom MBC to control WOT boost. It is drawn on paper and will be finished tomorrow. It will keep turbo functioning like stock, but I will be able bleed off a bit of W/G pressure, and gain 1 - 1.5 PSi in boost safely at wot. And with the valve closed, the system functions 100% stock. And the spring/ball are only for a one way valve, only 1 psi is required to move the ball. It is only so at vacuum no backflow.

With a dirty air filter I boost 1-2 PSI over stock, so I don't see a problem with such a tiny amount of over boost.

I only hit 16.8 on a good day, so a pound more boost should not have any bad effects!

Here is he latest diagram. I will let you know results hopefully tomorrow . Good or bad I will report back my findings.

[mazdas4me]

Anyone wanting a reliable, smooth, and consistent, MBC Hybrid setup, this is the way to go!

When bleed closed, complete stock boost, as you bleed off EBC pressure, boost rises at WOT and tapers just like stock curve.Stock: 17.1 spike, 16.8 tapering down to 14.8 or so at 6000. Slight over boost: 18.4 spike, settling at 18, and tapering down to about 16 at 6000 (seemed like the best sweet spot).

Testing at 21 psi @ 3000 RPM in 3rd gear tires start to roast! Did not rev it out at that boost. at stock boost, or even raised a bit, 3rd does not spin like when boosted to 21+ psi, so more power, at least down low 3-4K is def felt and verified by spinning tires.

I did a couple short pulls with high boost (3-4K) and I never hit fuel cut? I kept increasing boost just to see if I could get it to boost/fuel cut, but would not hit it? I was at least 24 psi verified by manual boost gauge. By all means, not going to run it that high, but it is nice to able to increase boost so smoothly, and accurately from in cabin while driving.

Can't say if it is making more power under more boost, but the more boost I give it, the more power I seem to feel. I will get some VD comparisons, and some logs to see if any power is made, and how safe it is. My calculated EGT did not seem to go too high, especially spraying water/meth.

Check back in a couple days, I will have more data, and feedback. And no, it will not be a ZZB! If properly installed, used and boost monitored, MBC's can be a nice fine tuning device.

VERY happy with it!

[anavrinIV]

Originally Posted by mituc Also, Hypertech is using the factory timing tables which are very conservative once you up the load/boost. They are actually way too conservative, your engine will just spit fire out of the exhaust and the gases that are supposed to make you power are being let out off of the cylinders.

According to the logs in his other thread he's pulling 6* at 4k and 16* at redline. Not very conservative

Originally Posted by mazdas4me I was at least 24 psi verified by manual boost gauge.

Don't do that. your MAP sensor can't read that high.

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by anavrinIV According to the logs in his other thread he's pulling 6* at 4k and 16* at redline. Not very conservative Don't do that. your MAP sensor can't read that high.

Was trying to see when boost/fuel cut happens. I know the limits of the factory MAP, but why do I not get boost/fuel cut? Maybe because I did not hold it very long? I went WOT at 3K and lifted at 4K for the first boosting tests. Obviously not going to boost anywhere near 24, was just testing operation when I first installed it, and trying to hit the cut limit.

Alright, hopefully when I get back I will have some logs to evaluate.

Will do 16.8 - stock HT boost, 18.5 (where I want it), and a bit over 19 psi runs.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by anavrinIV According to the logs in his other thread he's pulling 6* at 4k and 16* at redline. Not very conservative

Well, look at the factory tune timing tables and you will see exactly that.
But once the load is increased the factory timing tables have very poor timing advance values.

[mazdas4me]

Results are in! Pretty much as I expected. 18 made more power than 17, but 19.5 is pushing past the limits and lost 4 pounds of torque, hp stayed the same. At 18 psi, I made 11hp and 6tq gain over stock.

I was shooting for 18.5, but did not have much time. I will get another log, same road, etc... at 18.5 psi. 18.5 is the max I was shooting for, and that is about the max for my tune. Like I was saying, I see higher boost levels depending on temp, load, weight in car, etc... I just want to be able to control it as needed on the fly.

No spikes, and no funky turbo operation, just more boost! AFR looks good. W/G duty cycle ok. BAT's barely raised, even at 19.5 PSI. WMI is nice!

Here ya go!

[6Y MAZDA]

i don't understand...all this work when you can just get an AP. it's like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by 6Y MAZDA i don't understand...all this work when you can just get an AP. it's like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

I think it's cool when people try to think outside the box. But like you said, there's already a solid foundation here for what he's trying to accomplish. There's already plenty of people making more power with an AP and supporting mods, safely.

[mazdas4me]

I don't want an AP! I just wanted a couple more PSI boost!

You guys and your fuckin AP pusher status is just too much! LMFAO!

Anyone looking for an easy and cheap way to get a bit more boost, here ya go...

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by 6Y MAZDA i don't understand...all this work when you can just get an AP. it's like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

All this work meaning $20 in parts at the hardware and auto store, and running 2 tees and 2 vacuum lines? Not all that much work. Easy, Cheap, and it works well! I will post logs of stock boost, and a couple with increased boost. I think Hypertech is plenty rich enough to handle 18.5 psi boost. Remember, it still tapers off and follows tune curve when using the Hybrid setup.

[DSIT995]

How about a couple logs of higher boost settings??

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by DSIT995 How about a couple logs of higher boost settings??

See post 6...

[8.5MS3]

you want a "safe" tune, yet want to force the car to create more boost without adjusting any tables for it

you want a "safe" tune yet are purposely trying to hit fuel/load cut.

you sir, are an idiot. and no, it will not work

inb4groanbecauseopaskedquestionanddidntgetanswerhe wantstohear

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 you want a "safe" tune, yet want to force the car to create more boost without adjusting any tables for it you want a "safe" tune yet are purposely trying to hit fuel/load cut. you sir, are an idiot. and no, it will not work inb4groanbecauseopaskedquestionanddidntgetanswerhe wantstohear

WOW! Wait for logs to be so sure!

And YES, it works just fine!

[littleloogy]

When I installed my ebcs in 3 port interrupt, I installed my lines backwards, Meaning wastegate was held shut. I over boosted like it was going out of style, but I did not get a boost/throttle cut. Do not put faith in a built in "fail safe" because it may not work correctly. This is crazy, You need to be monitoring everything the motor is doing. You need data to ensure a healthy motor, we need data before we would attempt anything like this.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by littleloogy When I installed my ebcs in 3 port interrupt, I installed my lines backwards, Meaning wastegate was held shut. I over boosted like it was going out of style, but I did not get a boost/throttle cut. Do not put faith in a built in "fail safe" because it may not work correctly. This is crazy, You need to be monitoring everything the motor is doing. You need data to ensure a healthy motor, we need data before we would attempt anything like this. Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

I logged all test runs, and monitored boost gauge also. I did not beat the piss out of it overboosting! Everything looked safe. Now I know how it works, i will get official 3-6.5K logs and post them up for you guys. 18.5 PSI peak is what I was shooting for, and it felt real good to the butt dyno. In the summer heat, it will prob be left stock. But for this cool weather, spraying water and a bit of Meth, 1.5 PSI overboost is nothing!

Be back later with log files...

[8.5MS3]

i dont need to wait for logs to be sure

ill take the body braces in your part out thread when a rod comes out to say hi

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 i dont need to wait for logs to be sure ill take the body braces in your part out thread when a rod comes out to say hi

You got dibs!

inb4yousaysomeotherchildishcomment

[littleloogy]

Okay, that sounds better. I am interested in this. I just like data

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[adamizme]

Someone has more time than money and sense...

[8.5MS3]

hey, i got some chassis braces coming, so im all for it at this point

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 hey, i got some chassis braces coming, so im all for it at this point

Just for you, I will update this thread every couple weeks, give you a mention, and post how many miles I have gone over boosted!

I am shooting for 18.5 PSI peak boost all the time... Starting NOW @ 71,420 miles!
@8.5MS3;

[motherfnmonsta]

ya you are getting a nice initial boost increase but that SOB tapers off quick, I understand your logic and we are not trying to push a AP on you, but we just know what works man and we do not want to see you vent your block that is it.

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by motherfnmonsta ya you are getting a nice initial boost increase but that SOB tapers off quick, I understand your logic and we are not trying to push a AP on you, but we just know what works man and we do not want to see you vent your block that is it.

18.5 PSI is not going to throw a rod! I don't boost under 3K, and my car hits 18.1 PSI in the summer, so I just don't see your logic. I am within the safe boost level of Hypertech. It clearly has plenty of fuel, AFR's look good, BAT only went up less than 20 Degrees, and that was at the 19.5 PSI run. I won't be doing anymore runs over 18.5 PSI obviously no gains with my tune.

But 1.5 PSI over boost running Water/Meth, in cold weather unsafe? No...

Now when it is 100+ this summer, boost will be kept stock.

Yes, HT tapers off boost quick, adds a lot of fuel, and is aggressive on the timing to keep turbo safe/cool. That is another reason it is safe a bit over boosted, it is still following programmed boost curve, just a bit higher.

[8.5MS3]

25psi on a bt at roughly the same mileage doing it for about 25k, because AP and real tune

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 25psi on a bt at roughly the same mileage doing it for about 25k, because AP and real tune

Exactly, so why you saying my shit will blow up?

2 PSI is nothing!

You just need to chill a bit on your vendetta against me.

Again, not going anywhere...

Not getting an AP...

[mituc]

Originally Posted by mazdas4me 2 PSI is nothing! You just need to chill a bit on your vendetta against me.

If 2PSi is nothing why do you think Hypertech decided to cap de boost at 19PSI max? Why didn't they go up to 21? Because they didn't know how to tune?
Nobody has an ongoing vendetta on you, it's just that some of the guys here came to see many failed attempts of tuning these cars. And the conclusion is unanimous, adding parts to a car which change significantly the way the car works will lead to one single outcome: ZZB.

About this vendetta you have the impression it's going on you, let me tell you a little story: In the neighborhood I grew up we had a lot of tramp dogs. They were moving in packs (of at least of 3) so there were very few occasions when someone or some other animal (usually one of my female cats and another neighbor's dog, sometimes together) was having the occasion to beat one up. Otherwise they were peaceful, if you wouldn't throw things at them or yell at them nobody would notice them.
One day a 12 years boy came to visit his cousin and after 2 sleepless nights he was very determined to make some justice. It was the mating season and the dogs were a bit louder than usual.
When we all found out what he wanted to do we started to persuade him to chill. After about one hour of discussions his cousin and another my neighbors ended up beating up the guy with his own stick, and they did it pretty good (2 bruises on an arm, bruised rib, bruised eye, bleeding nose). All this just to prevent him from being bitten up by the dogs which would have been more serious.

So imagine you're the 12 years old boy in this story (I'm not implying that you have the judgment of a 12 years old, it's just an example). We here on MSF we became a bit protective about these cars. They are not being manufactured any more and they are pretty good otherwise. So we will curse you, invite you to suck our dicks, and all that's necessary to prevent you from ending up the life of another 2.3-DISI-T-kingofthehill engine.
The thing is that if you'd blow it up and you'd rebuild it - that's fine with us. But since you're not willing to spend as much as getting just an used AP then if you blow it up most probably an awesome car will end its life in a junk yard with no motor.

So shut up and listen to what more knowledgeable people have to say! It's for your own benefit AND joy!

Originally Posted by mazdas4me Not getting an AP...

Wait, I'm looking at your mods list, you're also spraying meth and still have the hypertech? Well, you really are an idiot... No vendetta, just the facts.

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by mituc If 2PSi is nothing why do you think Hypertech decided to cap de boost at 19PSI max? Why didn't they go up to 21? Because they didn't know how to tune? Nobody has an ongoing vendetta on you, it's just that some of the guys here came to see many failed attempts of tuning these cars. And the conclusion is unanimous, adding parts to a car which change significantly the way the car works will lead to one single outcome: ZZB. About this vendetta you have the impression it's going on you, let me tell you a little story: In the neighborhood I grew up we had a lot of tramp dogs. They were moving in packs (of at least of 3) so there were very few occasions when someone or some other animal (usually one of my female cats and another neighbor's dog, sometimes together) was having the occasion to beat one up. Otherwise they were peaceful, if you wouldn't throw things at them or yell at them nobody would notice them. One day a 12 years boy came to visit his cousin and after 2 sleepless nights he was very determined to make some justice. It was the mating season and the dogs were a bit louder than usual. When we all found out what he wanted to do we started to persuade him to chill. After about one hour of discussions his cousin and another my neighbors ended up beating up the guy with his own stick, and they did it pretty good (2 bruises on an arm, bruised rib, bruised eye, bleeding nose). All this just to prevent him from being bitten up by the dogs which would have been more serious. So imagine you're the 12 years old boy in this story (I'm not implying that you have the judgment of a 12 years old, it's just an example). We here on MSF we became a bit protective about these cars. They are not being manufactured any more and they are pretty good otherwise. So we will curse you, invite you to suck our dicks, and all that's necessary to prevent you from ending up the life of another 2.3-DISI-T-kingofthehill engine. The thing is that if you'd blow it up and you'd rebuild it - that's fine with us. But since you're not willing to spend as much as getting just an used AP then if you blow it up most probably an awesome car will end its life in a junk yard with no motor. So shut up and listen to what more knowledgeable people have to say! It's for your own benefit AND joy! Wait, I'm looking at your mods list, you're also spraying meth and still have the hypertech? Well, you really are an idiot... No vendetta, just the facts.

Nice story!

Again, 18.5 PSI boost is not going to blow my engine.

I would of course rebuild... But I am going for the high miles on this engine. I treat my shit right, and ALL my cars have treated me good. The last thing I want is a ZZB!

I am no 12 year old, I am a 47 year old grown man who LOVES his Mazdaspeed3! I am an auto tech by trade, disabled now, but have a 22 yr old son that works with me rebuilding, repairing, and restoring cars in our garage.

I am ASE Master Tech certified, as well as Factory, Ford, Mazda, and Mitsubishi trained. And of course, TONS of independent shop training on German, Japanese, Hybrid, etc... etc... etc...

Not bragging by all means, just letting you know I am not some stupid idiot.

I monitor everything, all the time.

As far as the Meth, I am only using a D03 nozzle(D04 is Rec size by chart), coming on @ 10 PSI, with a mixture of just under 20% by volume. MY AFR does not change at all spraying vs no spray. All it is doing is cooling air charge, EGT's, and of course cleaning my intake valves.

YOU are the idiot if you think that much WMI is at all bad for the MZR engine! WOW! Yes, if I was running a fucking D07 @ 50/50 or even 100% Meth, yeah that would be STUPID and pig rich!

Hypertech + 18.5 PSI + WMI @ 20/80 = VERY Happy MZR

Oh, don't forget about the e19 mix I run to keep my LTFT close to zero. I must be an idiot for that too, right? My car loves a tad bit of corn mix all the time! VD and data logs have proven it over and over consistently on my car.

That is what my car likes, I don't know what to tell you...

[DiGi Faggot]

Originally Posted by mazdas4me Exactly, so why you saying my shit will blow up? 2 PSI is nothing! You just need to chill a bit on your vendetta against me. Again, not going anywhere... Not getting an AP...

It's not PSI in itself.. Don't you get that? Maybe you missed the part where he said he had a "real tune". That's because he does. There are many reasons no one on this forums recommends hypertec and swears by the Cobb AP.

We've gone through our shares of Engines, We've dissected them like lab-frogs, we've assimilated their weaknesses and overcome their faults. We've tuned the engines and built them with bare hands.

You should listen to the people here instead of being a little asshole thinking we're pushing Cobb AP. We know what works. We're telling you what works.


INB4ZZB and Some Smartass Reply.

Originally Posted by mituc We here on MSF we became a bit protective about these cars. They are not being manufactured any more and they are pretty good otherwise. So we will curse you, invite you to suck our dicks, and all that's necessary to prevent you from ending up the life of another 2.3-DISI-T-kingofthehill engine. The thing is that if you'd blow it up and you'd rebuild it - that's fine with us. But since you're not willing to spend as much as getting just an used AP then if you blow it up most probably an awesome car will end its life in a junk yard with no motor.

I like your stories.

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by DiGi Faggot It's not PSI in itself.. Don't you get that? Maybe you missed the part where he said he had a "real tune". That's because he does. There are many reasons no one on this forums recommends hypertec and swears by the Cobb AP. We've gone through our shares of Engines, We've dissected them like lab-frogs, we've assimilated their weaknesses and overcome their faults. We've tuned the engines and built them with bare hands. You should listen to the people here instead of being a little asshole thinking we're pushing Cobb AP. We know what works. We're telling you what works. INB4ZZB and Some Smartass Reply. I like your stories.

Hypertech works for me. I did not buy Hypertech for the Speed3, I bought it for my N/A 06 3 Hatch that got totaled. It just happened to work on the Speed3 also. It works GREAT on my Speed3 here in California where smog is a bitch.

And yes, 90% of posts say to get an AP! That is pushing to me, especially when I am happy with what I have, and have no plans of getting one. To each his own! If I had the speed3 before the N/A 3, and I had a choice, of course I would have got the AP. But, again, I am happy with it, and it does what I need it to do for me.

Why groan EVERY post I made? I guess here is another to groan at. That is what I get for having my own opinion, and hot having an AP like most of you here.

Or maybe it is because I tried something that isn't MSF approved?

Last thing I want is to have to rebuild. The SMALL amount I am spraying, The SMALL amount of E85 I run, and the SMALL increased 18.5 PSI boost(1.4 PSI over boost) using a proven Hybrid MBC is NOT going to cause ANY damage to my engine, period! I don't boost down low, I shift at 5500, I get 0 knock at WOT, every run, even 4 dyno runs in a row I got 0 KR. The E mix even took care of the .2 knock I had at part throttle. Everything I have done, has given my engine positive results.

INB4YOUGROANMEFORLACKOFAP

[DiGi Faggot]

Originally Posted by mazdas4me And yes, 90% of posts say to get an AP! That is pushing to me, especially when I am happy with what I have, and have no plans of getting one. To each his own! If I had the speed3 before the N/A 3, and I had a choice, of course I would have got the AP. But, again, I am happy with it, and it does what I need it to do for me. Why groan EVERY post I made? I guess here is another to groan at. That is what I get for having my own opinion, and hot having an AP like most of you here. Or maybe it is because I tried something that isn't MSF approved? Last thing I want is to have to rebuild. The SMALL amount I am spraying, The SMALL amount of E85 I run, and the SMALL increased 18.5 PSI boost(1.4 PSI over boost) using a proven Hybrid MBC is NOT going to cause ANY damage to my engine, period! I don't boost down low, I shift at 5500, I get 0 knock at WOT, every run, even 4 dyno runs in a row I got 0 KR. The E mix even took care of the .2 knock I had at part throttle. Everything I have done, has given my engine positive results.

You're pretty fucking stupid. We're not pushing the Cobb AP because it's "MSF Approved" we're pushing it because the shit works. Because we know how these engines tick and how they blow up.

But if you want to be a smug pompous ass; Hey that's fine. Just don't expect us to be sad or overly helpful when the time comes you have to rebuild.

[TheFlash]

Originally Posted by mazdas4me Again, not going anywhere... Not getting an AP...

I ❤️ Nators

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by TheFlash I ❤️ Nators

No, AP is the ultimate tuning device! You have it wrong!

Hypertech is no AP by any means, and I am not comparing the 2. I have Hypertech, and it works well for me, therefore I have no reason to burn, ditch, sell, or anything else you AP fans would do with their Hypertech if they had one.

Stir it up some more!

[littleloogy]

I'm glad you are happy with this setup. It seems to work for you. Keep us updated.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[8.5MS3]

so, if you know so much, what exactly is the purpose of this thread?

i keep my ltfts at 0 by properly calibrating my MAF sensor......

[mazdas4me]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 so, if you know so much, what exactly is the purpose of this thread? i keep my ltfts at 0 by properly calibrating my MAF sensor......

I drew a modified diagram up using a MBC which by-passed the EBC (diagram came from MSF) and was asking if it would work... After I had it apart, I went a different route that was utilizing the factory EBC, the first diagram I was bypassing the EBC which would have been very bad without tuning for it. Boost would have ramped too fast for map I can not change.

Now, I posted my working diagram, which is different from the first one.

But if you read, and really cared about my thread and what is was about, you would know.

My ltfs without E is @ - 5-6 Hypertech is plenty rich, and VD has shown I can make more power by using E to get my ltft @ idle to 0 or slightly positive. It actually gives me about 20hp, and holds power up top much better running the bit of E. I usually add about 1/2 gal per 3 gallons of 91. After I fill up, I drive a bit and add a bit of E or 91, to get it exact. My AFR's are still PLENTY rich throughout the RPM running a bit of E, and of course the 20/80 D03 helps cool everything down and clean those nasty intake valves.