TMIC Sprayer/Improved Ducting

[Gr8Speed]

So I started off with this as a project for my Senior year in High School. I had asked opinions of my paper and project in this thread:

Scientific Approach to Intercooler Research

As you can see, a few people were very helpful. I went ahead with the project and figured I would report back my results. I'll post my conclusion paper here at the end.

Here's an overview of the setup I created and a sort of "how-to":

Items needed:
1. ~2 ft Vacuum/Washer Hose (4 mm) (Autozone)

2. 180 deg. Half Circle Fan Sprayers (Lowes Garden/Pond Section)


Step One: Find your Washer Fluid Reservoir. At the bottom back of the tank there is a nipple with the hose running off to the rear wiper. I just plugged the hose I had into this and disconnected the rear washer hose. This will allow you to just use the switch on the steering column to control the sprayer and replace the rear washer.


Step Two: Connect the sprayer nozzle to the hose and fasten it to the intercooler.


Bam, done with the sprayer portion.

Step Three: Get some corrugated plastic or really anything easy to work with and some duct tape and make some panels to create a "seal" around the sides and front of the intercooler. This will force the air to go out the back (the way the system is designed is with the vacuum at the rear edge of the undertray pulling the air out from behind the intercooler).




Step Four: Since I don't have an intercooler shroud I also made one out of the corrugated plastic.


And you're done. Close the hood and start using it. I was originally going to be getting all of the surround pieces I made out of corrugated plastic laser cut from some aluminum or carbon steel, but after seeing my results I decided it isn't worth it. I'm just going to make the shroud.

My conclusion is that, yes I think it helped a little... but not enough to justify wasting an hour building this or even get numbers that justify a quantitative "percentage" increase in efficiency. Just go FMIC and be done with it.


I still think it was a fun project, and interesting to see if it would do anything at all.

@rfinkle2; @Vansquish; @Mazdazilla6; @Mattyhawk1; @Baloo; @Yatta; @mize13; @Tokay444; @dale_gribble; @sheston;

[Mattyhawk1]

and, there you go. Good job on your effort!

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Mattyhawk1 and, there you go. Good job on your effort!

Pretty much. The goal wasn't necessarily to get it to work, just to get some data. Would've been cool if it worked though.

Anyway, I gotta go post a WTB for some FMIC piping.

[Vansquish]

Was the only modification to the "ducting" the corrugated plastic shroud? I'm curious as to whether or not you did something else as well!

[rodrigo]

didnt know wisconsin had good weed ....noted though

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Vansquish Was the only modification to the "ducting" the corrugated plastic shroud? I'm curious as to whether or not you did something else as well!

Oh I forgot to mention I blocked off the little portion on the Speed3 that goes to the battery. So that is the only modification to the top ducting. I also blocked off the sides/front escapes for the area under the intercooler.

[Vansquish]

Ahh...in that case, I'm not surprised that BATs etc. rose. You effectively created a higher-pressure zone beneath the intercooler, so there would be less flux through it. The result would be less efficient cooling. To me, the most interesting idea would be to create a vent at the trailing edge of the hood (i.e. something like a "cowl induction" hood). The easiest way to do that would be to remove some of the plastic cladding at the base of the windshield.

This could create a low pressure zone there and draw air out of the engine-bay. Of course, you would also be creating a bit of lift, but at pseudo-normal speeds, you're unlikely to feel much of a difference in that respect.

[AshFromCan]

Cool. Clever idea using the windshield washer controls. Anything that gets your brain thinking is worth while. Keep up the good work.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Vansquish Ahh...in that case, I'm not surprised that BATs etc. rose. You effectively created a higher-pressure zone beneath the intercooler, so there would be less flux through it. The result would be less efficient cooling. To me, the most interesting idea would be to create a vent at the trailing edge of the hood (i.e. something like a "cowl induction" hood). The easiest way to do that would be to remove some of the plastic cladding at the base of the windshield. This could create a low pressure zone there and draw air out of the engine-bay. Of course, you would also be creating a bit of lift, but at pseudo-normal speeds, you're unlikely to feel much of a difference in that respect.

So essentially a venturi going to the windshield? So it would literally "vacuum" the air out from under the intercooler? I think it would be interesting, but not worth it imo to modify the plastic there because you can't go back if you cut anything. My idea was to add something to the system so it can be taken off if need be. At that level of modification I would just go FMIC.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed So essentially a venturi going to the windshield? So it would literally "vacuum" the air out from under the intercooler? I think it would be interesting, but not worth it imo to modify the plastic there because you can't go back if you cut anything. My idea was to add something to the system so it can be taken off if need be. At that level of modification I would just go FMIC.

I'm not saying that you'd cut it, I'm saying that you could remove it by popping the little pop-fasteners off. A lot of people do that to install their BTs.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Vansquish I'm not saying that you'd cut it, I'm saying that you could remove it by popping the little pop-fasteners off. A lot of people do that to install their BTs.

Hmm. And then I would just redirect the air that is going down to the undertray up to there? It's an interesting thought. The hot air would be able to rise out of there then... But now isn't it going to be weird flowing the air from under the hood over the intercooler and back out the bottom just to go up again?

[Vansquish]

You're worrying too much about whether the hot air will rise vs. fall again instead of thinking about it as a large low-pressure zone that would "suck" the air out of the engine-bay.

Moreover, you're forgetting that once the air has exited the intercooler, it won't simply "pool" on top of the valve cover. Sure, some of it will backtrack and try and go up through the intercooler and become trapped in the ductwork, but once you're not at rest, air will flow through the ductwork and push that hot air that has collected around the intercooler out of the duct and into the rest of the engine-bay.

Try to think about it like this:

From the front end of the duct to where it meets the intercooler shroud = high pressure zone

From the intercooler shroud and below = low pressure zone.

The trick is to make sure that the low-pressure area doesn't stagnate and become a high-pressure zone. This is effectively what happens when you come to a stop. When you're moving, air is being drawn out of the engine bay by the pressure differential between the front of the car and the moving air below it (a general rule is that moving air is at a lower pressure than air that is not moving).

Furthermore, the ductwork on the underside of the hood, and the intercooler shroud ensure that the air that comes into the front of the car and traverses that ductwork, enters the intercooler and exits the bottom of the intercooler. By making the area beneath/around the intercooler, below the shroud a low-pressure zone, you can improve the flux through the intercooler, and thereby cool your BATs more effectively.

This is why it didn't surprise me in the least that you saw your temps increase when you blocked off the front/sides of the gap below the intercooler. This would mean that there would be less places for the air to exit the area beneath the intercooler, and therefore, the air would be more likely to become pressurized. As a result, since there would likely be less of a pressure differential between the top and bottom of the intercooler, you'd have less flow through it, and therefore, less of a cooling effect.

What I'm suggesting is that you could remove some of the cowl material to see if that has an impact on your BATs under similar testing conditions. I can't promise that it will, but IF there IS a low-pressure zone at the base of the windshield, then you're likely to see your BATs drop. Of course, if instead, opening that gap allows air to be forced IN to the engine-bay, then your BATs will rise because again, there will be less of a pressure differential between the top and bottom of the intercooler.

It would be a simple test, anyway.

Does that all make sense?

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Vansquish You're worrying too much about whether the hot air will rise vs. fall again instead of thinking about it as a large low-pressure zone that would "suck" the air out of the engine-bay. Try to think about it like this: From the front end of the duct to where it meets the intercooler shroud = high pressure zone From the intercooler shroud and below = low pressure zone. The trick is to make sure that the low-pressure area doesn't stagnate and become a high-pressure zone. This is effectively what happens when you come to a stop. When you're moving, air is being drawn out of the engine bay by the pressure differential between the front of the car and the moving air below it (a general rule is that moving air is at a lower pressure than air that is not moving). Furthermore, the ductwork on the underside of the hood, and the intercooler shroud ensure that the air that comes into the front of the car and traverses that ductwork, enters the intercooler exits the bottom of the intercooler. By making the area beneath/around the intercooler, below the shroud a low-pressure zone, you can improve the flux through the intercooler, and thereby cool your BAT more effectively. This is why it didn't surprise me in the least that you saw your temps increase when you blocked off the front/sides of the gap below the intercooler. This would mean that there would be less places for the air to exit the area beneath the intercooler, and therefore, the air would be more likely to become pressurized. As a result, since there would likely be less of a pressure differential between the top and bottom of the intercooler, you'd have less flow through it, and therefore, less of a cooling effect. What I'm suggesting is that you could remove some of the cowl material to see if that has an impact on your BATs under similar testing conditions. I can't promise that it will, but IF there IS a low-pressure zone at the base of the windshield, then you're likely to see your BATs drop. Of course, if instead, opening that gap allows air to be forced IN to the engine-bay, then your BATs will rise because again, there will be less of a pressure differential between the top and bottom of the intercooler. It would be a simple test, anyway. Does that all make sense?

Yeah that makes sense. If I don't go FMIC soon I'll try it out!


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[Vansquish]

The issue, as I alluded to above, is that a "cowl hood" is generally designed to create a high-pressure zone at the trailing edge of the hood so that fresh air gets pushed into the engine bay from there. So the real question is:

Can you think of a design that will, in fact, draw air OUT instead of allow air IN? That should be your real goal :-)

It might be as simple as putting a small lip on the top side of the trailing edge of the hood (think a "small lip spoiler" or a "bug guard/shield") and removing the cowl material.


@dale_gribble; tried this on his MS6:
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/for...-lower-123117/

[Fjager]

From doing some research on intercooler sprayers I found that the water needs to be misted over the intercooler to do much good, fan sprayers wouldn't give you the mist effect needed to cool, mist evaporates much better than a spray. Evaporation is what would cool the intercooler. I was looking into building a sprayer for cheap and found some mister nozzles at home depot that I plan on using, they weren't terribly expensive ~5 bucks each. try switching the nozzles out for mister nozzles if you get a chance, if not I will be doing it a bit later anyways.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager From doing some research on intercooler sprayers I found that the water needs to be misted over the intercooler to do much good, fan sprayers wouldn't give you the mist effect needed to cool, mist evaporates much better than a spray. Evaporation is what would cool the intercooler. I was looking into building a sprayer for cheap and found some mister nozzles at home depot that I plan on using, they weren't terribly expensive ~5 bucks each. try switching the nozzles out for mister nozzles if you get a chance, if not I will be doing it a bit later anyways.

These were a pretty fine spray. Let me know when you do it! I'm about to start spraying the meth in rather than on.


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[dsmluck]

I did this on my old speed. Helped at the 1/4 mile track when doing back to back runs but was basically useless any other time. You dont need a FMIC to drop temps. Either meth or eth will do the job on top mounts just fine.

Chemical Intercooling > Mechanical

[Gr8Speed]

Sprayed for 5 minutes continuously. Yup. Not using this at the track.


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[Fjager]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed These were a pretty fine spray. Let me know when you do it! I'm about to start spraying the meth in rather than on. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

haha awesome. meth can be sprayed from the same setup you have, just need to add a controller.

I will definitely report back with some results. I currently have a FMIC on and my friend is TMIC and he will be running the same setup that I am building. So we can get comparisons from both.

Main reason I want to add a sprayer is because I live in the high desert during the week and its regularly 95+ degress up here and summer has just started lol... so any way to bring down my bats cheaply is nice.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager haha awesome. meth can be sprayed from the same setup you have, just need to add a controller. I will definitely report back with some results. I currently have a FMIC on and my friend is TMIC and he will be running the same setup that I am building. So we can get comparisons from both.

I've been wondering that. I mean the pump for the rear wiper seems to put it out at decent pressure. I'm wondering if I could just run a boost control solenoid in place of the switch on the steering column. Hmmm.


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[Fjager]

Lex made a write up on how to put a meth kit using the stock windshield washer resevoir. I'm sure you can reference that on how to set it up properly.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager Lex made a write up on how to put a meth kit using the stock windshield washer resevoir.

Yeah but he was running a separate pump. I'm wondering if I can use the stock pump.


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[Fjager]

that's exactly what I have been trying to find, how much pressure the stock windshield washer pump pumps out. along with having a mister nozzle is having the right pressure. higher pressure is better.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager that's exactly what I have been trying to find, how much pressure the stock windshield washer pump pumps out. along with having a mister nozzle is having the right pressure. higher pressure is better.

I can test it tonight. Most meth pumps are around 200 PSI aren't they?


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[Fjager]

The Devils Own pump is rated for 300 psi, so yes they are pretty high pressures.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager The Devils Own pump is rated for 300 psi, so yes they are pretty high pressures.

Coolingmist was 200 iirc. I'll test it tonight and report back. Will only be with the sprayers I have though.


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[Fjager]

that's still a good test to see how they perform if a higher pressure will make them atomize the water, or just a really large fan stream lol.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager that's still a good test to see how they perform if a higher pressure will make them atomize the water, or just a really large fan stream lol.

Id just get a meth nozzle, check valve, and BCS. Altogether shouldn't be more than $50. I'm running e85 and a k04, so I wouldn't be relying on the meth for fuel or octane. I jus want the cooling from it, so a d03 would probably suffice.

But first I need to make sure there's even a decent amount of pressure there.


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[Fjager]

If it can make 30 then I'd say your good to go. Tho how well it would work I dunno compared to 200+ from a meth pump.

Why even do meth, e85 doesn't care about BAT's lol.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager If it can make 30 then I'd say your good to go. Tho how well it would work I dunno compared to 200+ from a meth pump. Why even do meth, e85 doesn't care about BAT's lol.

Because I'm going EWG on this thing and I intend to push the turd until it pops.


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[Fjager]

LOL nice.

[Gr8Speed]

@Fjager; I rigged up this bad bitch and got somewhere between high 40s/low 50s for a pressure.


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[Fjager]

Nice. That's not bad at all from the stock pump. I saw some 40-60 PSI mister heads, that makes it interesting now. I've been looking all day for a damn pressure switch that isn't too expensive or from china that will take forever to get here lol... to make the system automatic and consistent.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Fjager Nice. That's not bad at all from the stock pump. I saw some 40-60 PSI mister heads, that makes it interesting now. I've been looking all day for a damn pressure switch that isn't too expensive or from china that will take forever to get here lol... to make the system automatic and consistent.

Coolingmist. $30. I think I will be running that one. I had a Coolingmist kit a while back that used that one and it was decent. I think I will be trying a setup using the stock tank/pump and feeding through a check valve to a d03 nozzle. Going to try tapping the hot side of the IC, seeing as that will pretty much vaporize the mixture. That way I don't have to worry about atomization.


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[Fjager]

Nice, I didn't see that one in my searches, I did find the Devils own for 20. Overall using just the pressure switch, and a check valve and the stock pump/reservoir with a nozzle you can do Meth injection for stupid cheap lol. That's like 60-100 in parts compared to what companies charge for their kits, it's a steal.

[Enki]

Myself and one other local AZ NATOR tested this and can confirm it's not that great; there would be more benefit from moving more air across the TMIC (impossible on genwon without hood mods), a FMIC or supplemental chemical intercooling (WMI).

I'm running an 8GPH nozzle (50/50) with a CPE TMIC on a big turbo and where my BATs used to hit 170+ (and kick into boost cut safety), they now peak at 110 degrees but only after 3 full gears. A single fourth gear pull would usually end at around 140, but now ends at around ambient, and that's with relatively high humidity to go with 100+ degree temps.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Enki Myself and one other local AZ NATOR tested this and can confirm it's not that great; there would be more benefit from moving more air across the TMIC (impossible on genwon without hood mods), a FMIC or supplemental chemical intercooling (WMI). I'm running an 8GPH nozzle (50/50) with a CPE TMIC on a big turbo and where my BATs used to hit 170+ (and kick into boost cut safety), they now peak at 110 degrees but only after 3 full gears. A single fourth gear pull would usually end at around 140, but now ends at around ambient, and that's with relatively high humidity to go with 100+ degree temps.

I made the same conclusion. I invested in an AEM progressive kit and even with a 5gph nozzle, see around ambient/10 above ambient on a 4th gear pull.