So...Turbo/motor limits on stock block & internals?

[94jedi]

With this last engine popping so suddenly (palerider), I started thinking about the limitations of the stock block & internals and what it was exactly that made Pale's engine blow. Can anyone give me any insight on this? What is the weak point in our engines? What's the hp/tq limit on a stock block/internals? Obviously a good tune has all the world to do with it but at some point, the engine can't handle anymore. Is it rods like it was in the 1.8T? the 1.8T's were supposed to be good to about 400chp. so anything over a 2871 and you were pretty much on borrowed time.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[phailerider]

as has been said....hp doesnt cause engines to blow. torque does. If the torque on the rod cant handle that, it will stress and break. I think 350whp, calculated off of torque.... is the max. I think less than that is even putting yourself at risk but there will be guys who are fully bolted getting 50-60k out the motor. Others wont. I made my torque higher and sustained it longer.

Turbo upgrades are gonna push it. any kind of turbo upgrade is gonna push it.

I dont think the car was too lean. the car was designed to run lean where I blew. speculating about correcting the design isnt whats gonna fix this.

stronger rods are.

I blew because I was on a mission to blow. 370whp will blow this engine. i simply made too much too long and it broke.

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by palerider as has been said....hp doesnt cause engines to blow. torque does. If the torque on the rod cant handle that, it will stress and break. I think 350whp, calculated off of torque.... is the max. I think less than that is even putting yourself at risk but there will be guys who are fully bolted getting 50-60k out the motor. Others wont. I made my torque higher and sustained it longer. Turbo upgrades are gonna push it. any kind of turbo upgrade is gonna push it. I dont think the car was too lean. the car was designed to run lean where I blew. speculating about correcting the design isnt whats gonna fix this. stronger rods are. I blew because I was on a mission to blow. 370whp will blow this engine. i simply made too much too long and it broke.

Well, thanks for biting the bullet for us...I know tq blows engines but I was sort of just looking for a generalization of an HP figure...350 whp. So back in my 1.8T days, you could upgrade rods for relatively cheap (a set of Scats for about $350) and be on your merry way to over 400whp(again, an arbitrary HP figure)...

Do you think the same could be done on this engine? how difficult is it to replace rods w/ the engine in the car? or is it a must to pull the engine?

Also, is there a post about your blown engine anywhere? I'd like to know a few more details if possible such as a/f's when it blew, what cylinder, what did it look like , egt's, etc...

Lastly, what are you looking at cost-wise to build a new motor? who's doing the work and what are you throwing in there?

[PDXImportRacer]

Where are people who have nuked their motors bought another one from? Are they new or did you find a junk yard one? Also about how much is a new and/or used motor?

[ms3jake]

I dont see why the average Ms3 owner would want much more than 300 at the front wheels on a daily street drivin driver. Unless your at the drag strip its mostly useless wheelspin. It would have been nice of coarse to see the Ms3 handle more than the srt4 on stock internals. I would take 300 fwh ms3 over a 300 fwh srt4 any day.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by ms3jake I dont see why the average Ms3 owner would want much more than 300 at the front wheels on a daily street drivin driver. Unless your at the drag strip its mostly useless wheelspin. It would have been nice of coarse to see the Ms3 handle more than the srt4 on stock internals. I would take 300 fwh ms3 over a 300 fwh srt4 any day.

i drive with 886 to the wheels on my truck. Its hardly useless horsepower. There is nothing like being able to smoke your tires from a 75mph roll on the freeway than pulling 8 cars on them in a split second

I think 400 is perfect, especially when you come across the much higher horsepower cars who think they are going to blow you away.No one said you need to launch like John Force out of the hole anyways.

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by Haltech i drive with 886 to the wheels on my truck. Its hardly useless horsepower. There is nothing like being able to smoke your tires from a 75mph roll on the freeway than pulling 8 cars on them in a split second I think 400 is perfect, especially when you come across the much higher horsepower cars who think they are going to blow you away.No one said you need to launch like John Force out of the hole anyways.

agreed, I would like something in the realm of 400chp, around 360+ to the wheels. That would be more than enough to get low 12's out of the car and high 11's w/ traction.

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by Haltech No one said you need to launch like John Force out of the hole anyways.

MS6s can

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER MS6s can

Yea and you're heavier too.. If you could choose the power distribution in the MS6, it would be pretty badass. Its a shame no one has been able to do that.

[ATE BALLER]

I'm actually trying to track down a rear diff to pull apart. My neighbor owns a gear mill that makes gear sets for large machinery. He said all I have to give him is a CAD file. It just so happens I'm a CAD Technician. I'm going to pull apart a diff and see what it's going to take to make it 50/50 all the time, draw it up, and get him to punch me out some hardened gears for it. At least that's the plan.

[Haltech]

When does the computer tell it to goto 50/50 mode, only during loss of traction?

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER I'm actually trying to track down a rear diff to pull apart. My neighbor owns a gear mill that makes gear sets for large machinery. He said all I have to give him is a CAD file. It just so happens I'm a CAD Technician. I'm going to pull apart a diff and see what it's going to take to make it 50/50 all the time, draw it up, and get him to punch me out some hardened gears for it. At least that's the plan.

What type of AWD system do MS 6's use? My buddy came up w/ something Similar for our Audi A4's Quattro (torsen) system.

food for thought:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...light=DIY+diff
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...light=DIY+diff

[ATE BALLER]

Loss of traction, cornering, and all of 1st gear. I beleive it varies UP to 50/50 under loss of traction and during cornering, but 1st gear is all 50/50. This is according to that technician training program I picked up.

[ATE BALLER]

It's FoMoCo's version of a Haldex AWD system.

Haldex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haldex

There are Haldex controllers on the market, but Mazda didn't use the same software, suposedly.

[winniep]

My goal is roughly 300-320ish to the wheels on the upgraded stocker running 16psi or less, daily WITHOUT SMOKE!!!!!!!!!! Then, flip the switch on the meth and a couple gallons of Sunoco 104 in the tank and try for a nice 350ish to the wheels at about 18-19psi for the track. Surely, if I watch my A/F ratios and get myself an exhaust temp gauge and eventually, when it is released, the flash and Standback tuned, this is doable on stock internals. I am also about to start myself a "built motor fund" that by this time next year, should have enough in it just in case something goes wrong. I honestly considered building one and just storing it in my garage until that fateful day. Then a custom DBB 50 trim build clocking about 420WHP @ 20psi . Of course another regimen of race gas and meth for the track....................

[redrocketz]

well we have an ms6 rolling with just under 330awhp and 400awtq daily for over 15k miles so far. That translates to well over 420bhp. We are building the motor now though and going for broke this summer.

[JimmyMac]

Originally Posted by redrocketz well we have an ms6 rolling with just under 330awhp and 400awtq daily for over 15k miles so far. That translates to well over 420bhp. We are building the motor now though and going for broke this summer.

How long would it take to build me a block if/when I blow mine?

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by redrocketz well we have an ms6 rolling with just under 330awhp and 400awtq daily for over 15k miles so far. That translates to well over 420bhp. We are building the motor now though and going for broke this summer.

What is the cost involved in building the motor? do you guys just do rods/rings/bearings or pistons too?

[winniep]

Originally Posted by redrocketz well we have an ms6 rolling with just under 330awhp and 400awtq daily for over 15k miles so far. That translates to well over 420bhp. We are building the motor now though and going for broke this summer.

What kind of snail are you running on this baby? Modded stocker? GT30?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by winniep What kind of snail are you running on this baby? Modded stocker? GT30?

gt 30 baby!!!! see winnie... theres still hope... hes been running 18psi on a gt 30 for a year now!!!!

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by palerider gt 30 baby!!!! see winnie... theres still hope... hes been running 18psi on a gt 30 for a year now!!!!

man, I think that would be perfect for me...a 3071 at 18psi on stock bottom end....at least until I can afford to build it lol.

[winniep]

Originally Posted by palerider gt 30 baby!!!! see winnie... theres still hope... hes been running 18psi on a gt 30 for a year now!!!!

LMAO! I haven't "lost" hope per say, just have a decreased amount of it instilled into my powerplant . Besides, when (not if) I finally do build the motor, which will HOPEFULLY be on my terms, I am gonna have to go DBB 50 trim. Just something about that turbo......... I think that this car would be mean as hell with one on.......

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by winniep LMAO! I haven't "lost" hope per say, just have a decreased amount of it instilled into my powerplant . Besides, when (not if) I finally do build the motor, which will HOPEFULLY be on my terms, I am gonna have to go DBB 50 trim. Just something about that turbo......... I think that this car would be mean as hell with one on.......

ATP sells a CHRA DBB conversion for the 50 trim. the journal bearing 50 trim w a .48 a/r was mean as hell on my 1.8T. Can't imagine what it would be like on a 2.3L w/ the larger .63 a/r housing.

[cld12pk2go]

sub

[redrocketz]

we do everything but the crank. We can also do PnP on the head if you want it. turn around really depends on availability of the parts right now probably 2 weeks. 1 guy has been waiting a few months now for his build but it is requiring some more attention than usual. the Cost is 5000 for one if we used a new block a used one all depends on how cheap you can source the engine. but we use only new blocks for our builds.

[JimmyMac]

Question, what rods would fit the stock pistons without any mods? Just straight up bolt in. I thought I read somewhere that some would require some grinding down. But not sure on that.

My car was running 22psi on that 329whp pull....most of the time I was running 18psi and was making 315whp. It will be interesting to see what the GT30 will put down at 24psi reworked. Since Zach went ahead and ruined the surprise Ill just say it. NEW TURBO MANI. PORT AND POLISH HEAD AND INTAKE MANI (MAYBE TURBO MANI TO) MRLILGUY CDFP AND A FMIC. FORGED INTERNALS AND A COMPLETELY REWORKED GT3071