Pill size and Acuator Spring Pressure

[SilverDemon]

This is for John@theshop........


To measure the size of the pill I tried finding the smallest drill bit I could, but to no avail, my smallest one was .065" The next thing I could find was a paper clip, it measured about .035" and it fit with slight friction into the pill. I only performed this test on a Gen 1 KO4.

To test at what PSI the W/G opens up at I put together a 0 - 30 PSI regulator. I blocked off the bleeder port and attached the regulator to the other port. Slowly increased the pressure, I saw a very slight movement at 8 PSI. Then, according to the gauge, I then noticed a larger actuator movement around 14 PSI. I did this same procedure on a Gen 2 with the same results.

[SilverDemon]

.

[smitty5788]

and as per my logs, running only on the WG. Car boosted to about 12psi with some creep to about 17 before dropping off back to 12psi confirming basically what we saw with the regulator

[cpolly69]

Smitty - Just to reiterate here - you did or did not over boost on the stock control?
I'm just wondering if you have a definite mechanical issue with your actuator, wouldn't you have been over boosting even on stock control?

[smitty5788]

No mechanical issues at all, Scott and I verified that, I can post logs tomorrow but Im busy tonight.

But on the stock tune boost would come on normal and hit about 17lb. Now it spikes anywhere from 18-20 drops off quick and creeps back up beofre dropping off.

Mechanically everything is working as its designed. We will still give it a shot bypassing the pill with the other cold pipe Scott has but either way I cant get the pill out and im not running the car with the boost source for the WG coming off the cold pipe.

Chris Ill email the logs to you so you can look at them.

[TRex]

i just wanted to get my terminology right but what silver demon was verifying was mechanical boost pressure correct? without the help of the boost control system

[smitty5788]

yes we were verifying that mechanically the system on my car was working porperly isolating the mechanical boot control from the ECU after my tune.

On second though, im not trying Scotts cold pipe, thats a ton of work for nothing because my setup has been run and tuned tons of times without issue without boost pill modification etc.

Im not changing shit, its pretty clear what the issue is

[djuosnteisn]

Are you talking about trying a diff boost source w/out a restrictor pill? I just stumbled in here lol, not sure what's going no yet.

Would only take 2 seconds to T into the bpv line, and use that as an unrestricted boost source. That's assuming you want to make sure your car isn't creeping, right? And can properly run on spring pressure alone.

[smitty5788]

We have already verified that it runs correctly off spring perssure. John wants me to now bypass the pill to see if my nasty spike goes away.

However what Im saying is a car with my mods on the stock turbo has been run way too many times and doesnt have issues. I have logs clearly showing the spike post tune and none pretune. I also have a log showing the car running spring pressure the way it should.

So even if the spike goes away bypassing the pill its not a perminant fix and I shouldnt have to do it when a car modded like mine has been done before.

[djuosnteisn]

Well, i can see both sides of the argument. In subaru world, adjusting pill sizes isn't all that uncommon. Hence the reason Cobb went in depth discussing how it affects spool and boost control in their "how to" document. If drilling out your pill slightly helps mitigate the spike, and doesn't overwhelm the boost control solenoid, then it's one valid way to help. Tuning is both hardware and software sometimes.


But fortunately our ecu's are pretty damn capable of controlling spike IMO. There are quite a few tricks you can play to help keep it to a minimum.


So looks like there is potentially 2 ways to solve your problem.


IMO you could try using a welding tip (which is slightly bigger diameter than stock pill) wedged into a vac line coming off the bpv line for experimentation. Just cap off the nipple on your compressor. If that does the trick, then roll with it.

[smitty5788]

Exactly, is it harder and more time consuming to tune a catless car ... yes John even admits that mine was one of only two catless cars he tuned on his trip and the other guy also had issues. There is proof enough right there. If it were a subaru and I could just pull the pill and replace it id be fine with that.

I see what your saying that I could run it off the BPV line but that doesnt change the fact that this has been done and I was told by both CP-E and Cobb that this is just unnecessary if you know what your doing and for $600 he should be able to tune the car. Scott and I even talked about running a similar setup with the welding tip but it just should have to be done is my main point.

When he flashed the car for 19lb like he was planning to he had no control over it and it was at like 22lb and way unsafe. he thought my WG was stuck closed, scot and I tested everything, mechanically the car is 100% fine.

Ill make a thread tomorrow or post logs in here you will see how early my car spikes to 19-20 its way too low and asking for a bent rod. Its really unacceptible and I dont like how it has been handled by a vendor. Making me to do this and this and this when I paid for his services to do the job right and it has been done before. I have log proof that the car didnt spike pre tune it does not. I have a log showing it running on WG spring pressure.

The bottom line is the car mechanically is fine, this setup has been run, it takes time and knowledge to tune but it has been done over and over so rigging up some setup isnt necessary and unacceptible for the type of money I paid.

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by smitty5788 No mechanical issues at all, Scott and I verified that, I can post logs tomorrow but Im busy tonight. But on the stock tune boost would come on normal and hit about 17lb. Now it spikes anywhere from 18-20 drops off quick and creeps back up beofre dropping off. Mechanically everything is working as its designed. We will still give it a shot bypassing the pill with the other cold pipe Scott has but either way I cant get the pill out and im not running the car with the boost source for the WG coming off the cold pipe. Chris Ill email the logs to you so you can look at them.

Sure sounds like the WGDC/Boost Dynamics needs some work.... Does ECUTek have all the tables available?

[djuosnteisn]

I understand what your saying man.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 Sure sounds like the WGDC/Boost Dynamics needs some work....

Yeah, that could certainly help if not setup properly, but sometimes they seem too slow to handle the quick spikes the k04 dishes out. There are some tricks to make the ecu close the throttle, and i've actually had better luck using that to control spikes than the boost/load feed back loop.

Originally Posted by ms307nm subbed

lol, sub's the guy who's car we got to play with this exact subject

[I Love Brownies]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn lol, sub's the guy who's car we got to play with this exact subject

lol i know we did all that tuning to get rid of that damn boost spike. just wanna hear more info about the subject about how people are going about fixing it. as you stated before our cars our very capable of tuning out that spike.

my car is proof that we can be making 20psi without being at an unsafe low load.

[djuosnteisn]

And more importantly, running much lower boost in lower gears with minimal spiking.

[jhershorin]

::FACEPALM::

In time only more and more of this will surface. Lets hope he mans up and refunds you like you've asked. I find it amusing that he's trying to tell Scott (silverdemon) that his tests aren't enough. If I had to place money to say who is the most logical, organized, and mechanically sound "investigator" on here Scott wins the award.

[djuosnteisn]

Was he saying that scott's tests weren't legit? I missed that. Scott definitely takes care in his testing.

Or was he just trying to eliminate possible mechanical causes?

Seems to me that mechanically, everything seems in order. And the boost spike can be now fixed in 1 of many ways. Those ways are:
- tweak tune
- increase pill diameter
- get refund and go back to stock tune (which op admits didn't spike)
- get refund and take your chances with another tuning solution


How bad are these spikes again? You said 18 - 20? And how much boost were you wanting to tune for?

[SilverDemon]

My biggest problem with this is once we have done the testing the next thing John wanted us to do is move the boost source. I realize that controlling boost on this set up is a pain in the ass, but it can be done, and with the amount of money that was spent on the tune this should have been addressed once we verified the mechanics of the system.

The reason for this thread was to compare and verify the pill size and waste gate spring pressure with the Gen 2. I hope John will measure the Gen 2 KO4 so we can get the entire picture...

[smitty5788]

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 Sure sounds like the WGDC/Boost Dynamics needs some work.... Does ECUTek have all the tables available?

Ya he has access to those tables

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Was he saying that scott's tests weren't legit? I missed that. Scott definitely takes care in his testing. Or was he just trying to eliminate possible mechanical causes? Seems to me that mechanically, everything seems in order. And the boost spike can be now fixed in 1 of many ways. Those ways are: - tweak tune - increase pill diameter - get refund and go back to stock tune (which op admits didn't spike) - get refund and take your chances with another tuning solution How bad are these spikes again? You said 18 - 20? And how much boost were you wanting to tune for?

He isn't directly saying the stuff Scott and I did was wrong he is just insisting that he has logs from the night we tuned. Logs I have never seen. While I have these logs saying exactly what the story is. And Scott did these tests and I think most people in here know him and the kind of work he does.

The spikes are about 19-20 now, when he first flashed the car it was hitting 22 or so from what he said (again i haven't seen logs and I was driving so I couldn't see it) I was wanting him to tune for 18-19 but I couldn't tell you what he is targeting the way the car is tuned now but I bet its lower than what Im getting.

Here are some logs, keep in mind its a Gen2 so WGDC is unavailable. They are just boost and RPM, thats pretty much all I can log that is relevant.

Pre-tune, I was getting load cut pretty bad but as you can see boost doesn't spike at all



another one pre-tune, no spike. Both of these are exact same hard parts as I have now a couple days before he tuned the car. That is the only change between these and the next ones.



These are Post-tune, you can see it spike pretty clearly 19 and 20 pounds. Like I said I have no idea what the target is or what he wants it to do all I know is what it is doing.





Hopefuly you guys can see it, I also have logworks files if anyone wants to look at them.

At this point I want my money back so i can get an AP in a few weeks when its released, John can even send me the AP and the difference of like 45 or 50 bucks between his flash and the AP. Ill flash it back to stock and use the AP.

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by smitty5788 ....... At this point I want my money back so i can get an AP in a few weeks when its released, John can even send me the AP and the difference of like 45 or 50 bucks between his flash and the AP. Ill flash it back to stock and use the AP.

This is what you need to do and stay away from "tuners" who give people BS answers for why they SUCK!

[smitty5788]

lesson learned for sure. I figured after people got in here and said he was legit ... people who know their stuff way more than me ... that it would be ok. Plus he said he would convert his ECUTek map to the AP for free.

[djuosnteisn]

The pretune logs show spikes as well after the shift, right? Looks like it to me.

My role isn't to defend john. But i will say he isn't stupid and he does know how to tune.


And i'll stick to my previous statement that tuning is both software and hardware. Pill sizes are an integral part of the boost control process. I would say even if you were on stock tune, a larger pill diameter certainly wouldn't hurt you whatsoever.

Just my $.02.... GL with everything man!

[smitty5788]

thats not a shift thats a 4th gear pull and the load cut so no its not a spike after the shift.

[Amazon]

What? John talking out of his ass on an issue he seems to not know anything about?

How odd....

[smitty5788]

still havent heard from him ... he isnt quite as fast to respond when you not sending the money his way

[Christian.]

smitty5788,

I am just trying to offer some external assistance here. With the Gen1 MS vehicles, we would run into uncontrollable boost if a good intake, TIH, and catless exhaust was used. Simply put, the turbo goes into an overrun condition very easily with this hardware installed on the vehicle. A calibrator simply does not have control of the boost management system due to various mechanical parts that have been installed on the vehicle. If you install an exhaust manifold...these issues will be further exaggerated.

I actually let customers know that I could not (would not) calibrate their EMS unless we got the boost control system back to where we had mechanical and electronic control. Until then, the car simply could not be calibrated because the turbo would overrun with 0% WGDC. This sounds like what is happening to your vehicle.

I will admit that I have not calibrated many Gen2 vehicles, but I calibrated hundreds of Gen1 vehicles and I am familiar enough with Gen2 logic to state that I am confident that you are running into these mechanical issues. You have two options from here...create some additional restrictions on the intake or exhaust side of the turbo or mechanically modify the boost control system (modify restrictor pill or port WG outlet hole). Both of which will not allow for proper boost control if you get things wrong.

If you choose to not modify things mechanically, then John from The ShopCT can close the throttle down to help control the boost spikes. I know some hate to see this as a solution, but it works. I've also completed a write up on the consequences of various throttle positions during WOT runs on a chassis dyno. You have a few options, but please understand that the boost control system needs to be set up as designed or proper control will not be possible. I am just trying to offer some assistance since I've run into this before.

I hope this is helpful,
Christian.

[smitty5788]

Christian, thanks for your input and I understand where your coming from. That was the issue, 0% WGDC is what john said he saw. While I understand what your saying, it has been done many times in many ways and I have other tuners saying they will take the time to get it right.

If john knew what he was doing he would have know this issue ahead of time and told me he may have an issue or to pick up a MBC which I have been told will help, he knew my mods well before he got here.

Again I understand a car that is totally free flowing is going to take some tweaking and time to tune, keep in mind thought i have a stock IC and Exhaust manifold, there are plenty of people on here fully bolted on the stock turbo, n drilled pill or anything, that is what the main issue is.

[SilverDemon]

John, Christian, Thanks for posting in this thread.

John, have you measured the the ID of the pill on the Gen 2? The only reason I am asking, is that I, and few other people I know personally did not seem to have this problem on the gen 1 at the same mod level as smitty. I have been fully bolted with the stock KO4, but a different tuning solution, tuned both on the street and on a Mustang Dyno, and have not seen the boost control issues like smitty's car is having troubles with. I am really just wondering what the difference is.....

Thanks again for the input!!

[smitty5788]

Originally Posted by John@TheShopCT A MBC isn't going to fix the problem because it's not a boost controller issue. When the car is on only wastegate it runs more than wastegate pressure, a lot more. What I mean is, when we disconnect the factory boost controller from the turbo it should run 8psi..9psi..10psi..11psi..12psi, not spike to 17-22 and taper to 16-17 psi. We tested this, and this is what happened. There is zero boost control on your car right now, and that's a problem. Throttle maps can be played with, but in my eyes is not the best way to resolve the issue at hand. The map I left in your car will control boost just fine once the pill is opened up a little bit. And if it doesn't I will update it.

John thanks for finally posting, could you reply to my PM?

This is what gets me John, It does what you say it should, a spike is what is seen in the logs I posted up above and sent you. It suddenly jumps to 19-20lb. On the WG only log it slowly creeps up then drops off, no damn spike! I will take more and post them Im sure it will do the same thing every time. First off we tested the damn WG on a bench, the thing doesnt even start to move until 10lb at least if not more.

John, look at the logs I posted, same hard parts on the car. Pre tune is a few days before you tuned the car. Do you honestly see it spike?

No you dont, now look at the logs on your tune ... there is a pretty clear spike!! How can you say that this is not an ECU/Tune issue when the stock tune did not spike and with the tune on the car now it does? The only change between logs posted above it the tune, thats it so why is there a spike now and not before?

Can you tell me what boost are you even targeting now and Im pretty sure its in the 15-16 range not 19-20 like it is hitting? I would be interested to know, I think I remember you saying im basically on a stock 92 octane map right? obviously with some tweaks to the load and MAF tables.

[smitty5788]

Also, you said one other guy on the trip had this issue, who was it. I believe you said he was running the Turbo XS pipe? Catless also so what was the outcome for that guy John? Maybe he can chime in here.

There was also that guy up in Chicago, and after talking to him I dont think he knows the issue with his car but if it really is spiking whats up with that one? He didnt even have any exhaust mods. And an Intake leak is hardly the cause of boost spikes. If it isnt spiking then ignore that example, he has not way to log so Im just going off what he said on that one.

These are honest questions on my part John, why does it spike on your tune and not on the stock tune with the same parts? Other than the load cut in the cold it ran great. And why my car that isnt even heavily modded in my eyes, when people are running fully bolted stock K04 and tuned? I know cars are different from car to car with the same setup but come on?

Im not a tuning or ECU expert Im learning that part as I go and I think from this site I have learned a great deal more reading the GEN1 section, hard parts I can do, and I know they are working that I can promise you and I know how the boost control works and it is all functioning. As DJ said the stock setup has good control over the boost when you take the time to set it up right.

[dMuze]

sub'd. hoping you find a solution. im getting tuned in 2 weeks.

[John@TheShopCT]

Originally Posted by smitty5788 Also, you said one other guy on the trip had this issue, who was it. I believe you said he was running the Turbo XS pipe? Catless also so what was the outcome for that guy John? Maybe he can chime in here. There was also that guy up in Chicago, and after talking to him I dont think he knows the issue with his car but if it really is spiking whats up with that one? He didnt even have any exhaust mods. And an Intake leak is hardly the cause of boost spikes. If it isnt spiking then ignore that example, he has not way to log so Im just going off what he said on that one.

Guy in Chicago has issues because he had a huge intake leak then fixed it....I think I just got my second cable back so I'm sending it to him and updating his map. That's that.

Guy in FL has a exhaust manufold, and after talking to some people I was told that was the issue. Can't do anything with that guy because he still is waiting for his fuel pump to come in.

I'm tuned tons of gen2/gen1s and they dont have issues with boost control. So let's focus on you.

Two well know tuners have chimed in this thread and agreed with me.

You need to drill your pill.

*As stated in the test, the wastegate makes movement at 8psi, but not fully open..that makes it a 8lb wastegate*




Sent from my ADR6300

[John@TheShopCT]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon John, Christian, Thanks for posting in this thread. John, have you measured the the ID of the pill on the Gen 2? The only reason I am asking, is that I, and few other people I know personally did not seem to have this problem on the gen 1 at the same mod level as smitty. I have been fully bolted with the stock KO4, but a different tuning solution, tuned both on the street and on a Mustang Dyno, and have not seen the boost control issues like smitty's car is having troubles with. I am really just wondering what the difference is..... Thanks again for the input!!

I haven't, but I'm told its the same as the gen1. Ya its strange for sure

Sent from my ADR6300

[cpolly69]

John I don't understand why you keep going back to it's 100% mechanical & there is no other possibility.
The bottom line to me is that on the stock tune the car didn't spike out of control and on your tune it did.
I ran catless my first time around and I spiked like crazy on the stock tune. I know on my simple standback tuning software that if I start putting bigger numbers down too low on my map volts vs rpm chart that I'll see the same nasty spike (w/ no cat) because the k04's quick spool up blows the flapper out of control. I run spring pressure up till higher voltage and around 3800 rpm. Is there no possibility you are just bringing in too much boost at too low rpm?

[smitty5788]

dude I asked like 4 questions you andwered maybe 2. And just because a spring starts to move at 8 lb doesnt make it an 8 lb spring.

Originally Posted by cpolly69 John I don't understand why you keep going back to it's 100% mechanical & there is no other possibility. The bottom line to me is that on the stock tune the car didn't spike out of control and on your tune it did. I ran catless my first time around and I spiked like crazy on the stock tune. I know on my simple standback tuning software that if I start putting bigger numbers down too low on my map volts vs rpm chart that I'll see the same nasty spike (w/ no cat) because the k04's quick spool up blows the flapper out of control. I run spring pressure up till higher voltage and around 3800 rpm. Is there no possibility you are just bringing in too much boost at too low rpm?

This is exactly my point, on YOUR tune it spikes, on MAZDAS it does not ... Im asking why.

Im also asking why DJ said it can be done, Chris just said it can be done. I have had CPE tell me it can be done without touching the pill.

[John@TheShopCT]

Originally Posted by smitty5788 dude I asked like 4 questions you andwered maybe 2. And just because a spring starts to move at 8 lb doesnt make it an 8 lb spring. Actually, it does This is exactly my point, on YOUR tune it spikes, on MAZDAS it does not ... Im asking why. Not sure why your logs show this. The way the car is this second, it will spike more than the factory tune. The file i left in your car is setup so when you fix the pill it will work correctly. Im also asking why DJ said it can be done, Chris just said it can be done. I have had CPE tell me it can be done without touching the pill.

Adjusting the pill is one approach to the issue, and I believe it is the better one.

The boost pill is just too small.

I tell you this from experience.

I'm really trying to help you.

Bottom line to all of this. When the car is on wastegate ONLY it runs way more than wastegate pressure. That's the issue. The pill will fix that.

I really dont have much more to say on the issue.

[smitty5788]

Originally Posted by smitty5788 Also, you said one other guy on the trip had this issue, who was it. I believe you said he was running the Turbo XS pipe? Catless also so what was the outcome for that guy John? Maybe he can chime in here. There was also that guy up in Chicago, and after talking to him I dont think he knows the issue with his car but if it really is spiking whats up with that one? He didnt even have any exhaust mods. And an Intake leak is hardly the cause of boost spikes. If it isnt spiking then ignore that example, he has not way to log so Im just going off what he said on that one. These are honest questions on my part John, why does it spike on your tune and not on the stock tune with the same parts? Other than the load cut in the cold it ran great. And why my car that isnt even heavily modded in my eyes, when people are running fully bolted stock K04 and tuned? I know cars are different from car to car with the same setup but come on? Im not a tuning or ECU expert Im learning that part as I go and I think from this site I have learned a great deal more reading the GEN1 section, hard parts I can do, and I know they are working that I can promise you and I know how the boost control works and it is all functioning. As DJ said the stock setup has good control over the boost when you take the time to set it up right.

Originally Posted by John@TheShopCT Guy in Chicago has issues because he had a huge intake leak then fixed it....I think I just got my second cable back so I'm sending it to him and updating his map. That's that. Right, I said that. He conplained he was spiking bad which a leak wouldnt really cause. I also said I cant prove and neither can he that he is spiking because he cant log or monitor ... that one was a simple question Guy in FL has a exhaust manufold, and after talking to some people I was told that was the issue. Can't do anything with that guy because he still is waiting for his fuel pump to come in. He was also catless ... like me ... so its relevant couldnt be more revalant because he has an adidtional flow mod and his boost is out of control on your tune. Im not seeing what his FP has to do with his boost spiking anyway? I'm tuned tons of gen2/gen1s and they dont have issues with boost control. So let's focus on you. How many were catless? Any boost logs or should I request some in a new thread so we can see what kind of spikes people are seeing? And how when I asked the questions highlighted in red am I not focusing on me? I asked questions about my tune and people who are tuned by you having the same issue, thats focusing on my in my book. Two well know tuners have chimed in this thread and agreed with me. I have just as many people who agree with me, tuners, people who are respected on this platform, people who know their shit. This isnt a Subaru ... fucking with the pill isnt a common, easy or most of the time necessary thing to do. You need to drill your pill. *As stated in the test, the wastegate makes movement at 8psi, but not fully open..that makes it a 8lb wastegate* Please dont argue with me about springs and what spring constants are and how to measure and calculate them. I can have Scott run the test again and send me some measurements and tell you exactly the spring constang of the stock WG. I bet you its not even linear. If anyone has actually seen what it looks like let me know, it changes the calculation a bit. Sent from my ADR6300

Stock no spike ... tuned spike? Thats the bottom line.

What is my target boost?

Originally Posted by John@TheShopCT Adjusting the pill is one approach to the issue, and I believe it is the better one. The boost pill is just too small. I tell you this from experience. I'm really trying to help you. Bottom line to all of this. When the car is on wastegate ONLY it runs way more than wastegate pressure. That's the issue. The pill will fix that. I really dont have much more to say on the issue.

Again ... dont tell me how to measure a spring, I bet you its larger than 8lbs.

I have a fucking log showing this shit and I will take more. You said you have one and it still hit 20 on WG only ... I have one that it doesnt come fucking close 20 on the WG. Why the fuck is that confusing. Why the fuck is everything I say wrong or Scott says wrong when Im fucking in the car every day looking at the data that is available so far on the Gen2. Show me one person in this thread or on this forum that would stand up and say Scott and i messed up the fucking mechanical tests or cant look at a fucking boost lod and see that it doesnt spike when its not controled by your tune.

Your also right, it is one way to fix it, so is a proper tune.

Lastly, I am the customer, you are the vendor. You have something to say on the issue until the customer is happy. THIS CAR CAN BE TUNED ... IT HAS BEEN DONE

[djuosnteisn]

This thread is annoying for me to read... unsubbing...

[FORZDA 1]

To: smitty5788'

Dude, please just get your money back and buy the AP. At least then you KNOW WTF is going on and have the capability to update/change the ECU in your hand.

You will NOT get satisfaction from John@TheShopCT from this thread. Spikes are VERY common at first throttle poke with the OEM BCS when raising the boost above OEM levels. They CAN be tuned out for the most part without additional hardware changes, UNLESS you do indeed have a hardware malfunction. The OEM BCS is a pretty weak solenoid IMO, as mine malfunctioned and would cause both low boost and spikes. IMO you should ditch the OEM BCS and go with aftermarket EBCS (either bleed or interrupt) for more consistent boost control....

Get the AP/ATR and then "we" can actually help you. Otherwise you're just SOL.