Easy Boost Creep Fix?

[NuminouSpeed]

I'm sure there's some obvious reason this wouldn't work that isn't occurring to a noob like me, but at the risk of being flamed I thought I'd ask:

Why not just install a Stratified Guardian Angel and set the soft boost cut to your desired peak boost?

Granted, this wouldn't address how quickly the boost builds, but it would set an ultimate cap, right?

[btstarcher]

@Boost_creep;

Because he's calling you out.

Also because I have no idea how to answer your question.

[Lex]

The GA is a safety device and although it stops creep and spikes, it should not be used as a boost controller as the turbo is overworked during extended periods of time and system is not efficient.

We need more details on your setup. Is it an OEM turbo or aftermarket? What intake and exhaust, what is boost creeping to? What is the tune doing?

[Voltwings]

Depending on a few variables it could also act as a boost leak and throw your AFR off when used this way. in theory what you're saying could be done, but its not very practical.

[NuminouSpeed]

Originally Posted by Lex The GA is a safety device and although it stops creep and spikes, it should not be used as a boost controller as the turbo is overworked during extended periods of time and system is not efficient. We need more details on your setup. Is it an OEM turbo or aftermarket? What intake and exhaust, what is boost creeping to? What is the tune doing?

I was just asking for a friend who's getting creep on a 3071. He was advised to port WG/add cat/or both. I was just trying to think outside the box. He wasn't looking forward to the hassle of removing the turbo, addressing the issue, and the DD downtime. If nothing else, the GA would be great to have anyways and it may buy him some time until a more convenient time to do the wrenching.

Makes sense that the GA is a safety measure and not meant to be engaged on a frequent basis.

A related aside: I'm about to go BNR. Will I experience creep with my catless setup? I didn't think so, but I wasn't thinking about the catless aspect before. I'll be using a Stratified 3-port.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by NuminouSpeed I was just asking for a friend who's getting creep on a 3071. He was advised to port WG/add cat/or both. I was just trying to think outside the box. He wasn't looking forward to the hassle of removing the turbo, addressing the issue, and the DD downtime. If nothing else, the GA would be great to have anyways and it may buy him some time until a more convenient time to do the wrenching. Makes sense that the GA is a safety measure and not meant to be engaged on a frequent basis. A related aside: I'm about to go BNR. Will I experience creep with my catless setup? I didn't think so, but I wasn't thinking about the catless aspect before. I'll be using a Stratified 3-port.

Full catless and 3" exhaust will likely cause creep on the BNR as well, especially in the colder weather

[NuminouSpeed]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Full catless and 3" exhaust will likely cause creep on the BNR as well, especially in the colder weather

Awww, crap. Better save up for a cat to be welded in. I still have the stock axle-back section. Does that matter?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by NuminouSpeed Awww, crap. Better save up for a cat to be welded in. I still have the stock axle-back section. Does that matter?

Yes, any restriction will help prevent creep. A small exhaust, smaller intake, etc. they all "help" prevent creep.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by NuminouSpeed Awww, crap. Better save up for a cat to be welded in. I still have the stock axle-back section. Does that matter?

The stock axle back may be just enough. Here is an example. I tuned a friend on a k04 that was catess. We had full control over boost when cold. He added the full 3" CBE and then boost would spool well above 20 with zero wgdc, especially in 5th gear. So as lex said, any type of restriction will help, if you do have creep/uncontrollable boost issues.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by NuminouSpeed I was just asking for a friend who's getting creep on a 3071. He was advised to port WG/add cat/or both. I was just trying to think outside the box. He wasn't looking forward to the hassle of removing the turbo, addressing the issue, and the DD downtime. If nothing else, the GA would be great to have anyways and it may buy him some time until a more convenient time to do the wrenching. Makes sense that the GA is a safety measure and not meant to be engaged on a frequent basis. A related aside: I'm about to go BNR. Will I experience creep with my catless setup? I didn't think so, but I wasn't thinking about the catless aspect before. I'll be using a Stratified 3-port.

A combination of intake, exhaust and cold temperatures will cause creep. With a big intake, high flowing intercooler and no cat MOST internal gated turbos will creep as temperatures move below 50*F. The same setup could be fine with 80*F temperatures.

So there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. If you live in a climate that see cold temperatures often and this is a street/daily car, I recommend a high flow cat for IWG turbos as the simplest solution to creep. Yes the BNR will creep as well in lower temps with catless exhaust and open intake. It is not a function of the boost controller as the boost controller can only RAISE boost above the minimum that the turbo can run on spring pressure alone. It is a function of the wastegate not being efficient enough at slowing the turbine down in these conditions. Porting it can be hit and miss if not done properly and I would not do it on the BNR since the exhaust housing is fragile.

[NuminouSpeed]

Originally Posted by Lex A combination of intake, exhaust and cold temperatures will cause creep. With a big intake, high flowing intercooler and no cat MOST internal gated turbos will creep as temperatures move below 50*F. The same setup could be fine with 80*F temperatures. So there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. If you live in a climate that see cold temperatures often and this is a street/daily car, I recommend a high flow cat for IWG turbos as the simplest solution to creep. Yes the BNR will creep as well in lower temps with catless exhaust and open intake. It is not a function of the boost controller as the boost controller can only RAISE boost above the minimum that the turbo can run on spring pressure alone. It is a function of the wastegate not being efficient enough at slowing the turbine down in these conditions. Porting it can be hit and miss if not done properly and I would not do it on the BNR since the exhaust housing is fragile.

3.5" intake. Have FMIC with Treadstone core. Maybe that'll help keep things in check? (More pressure drop that hi-flow TMIC?)

[Lex]

Originally Posted by NuminouSpeed 3.5" intake. Have FMIC with Treadstone core. Maybe that'll help keep things in check? (More pressure drop that hi-flow TMIC?)

You can always start out this way and start tuning. If creep is an issue, then adding a high flow cat is relatively easy after the fact. But keep in mind that creep can be an issue especially if boost needs to be limited due to the fuel used to prevent knock.

[Smelson]

Originally Posted by NuminouSpeed 3.5" intake. Have FMIC with Treadstone core. Maybe that'll help keep things in check? (More pressure drop that hi-flow TMIC?)

Hi Zack.
@Redline143; @Zdraveca;

[redboat]

I was having the same problem on my stock K04 with a large dia intake, and catless 3" DP w/ cut out. My solution was lower WGDC, and increase effectiveness of the OTS BEC table. And I have 2 different tunes. One for warmer months, and another for colder.

**also watch you load values.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by redboat I was having the same problem on my stock K04 with a large dia intake, and catless 3" DP w/ cut out. My solution was lower WGDC, and increase effectiveness of the OTS BEC table. And I have 2 different tunes. One for warmer months, and another for colder. **also watch you load values.

If it's a tune issue this is easy to fix. True creep is not a tuning or WGDC issue. It is when WGDC is at 0 and boost still climbs above what your targets are.

[Zdraveca]

Lol zack you were banned from here for a reason.

OP is @Redline143; @Raider; can we do something about this?
Merry Christmas

Sent from Pu

[Zdraveca]

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...d.php?t=144826

Sent from Pu

[rolanblack]

wut.

[kritz]

Check post #39 an interesting way to add some restriction and lose it too.

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/for...2-build-87868/

[redboat]

Originally Posted by kritz Check post #39 an interesting way to add some restriction and lose it too. http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/for...2-build-87868/

That's a back yard boost controlled cut out. A lot of VW guys use these or use an E cut out like I have. Only think I don't like about these, is unless you have a bleeder value inside the cabin you can only partially control when it opens or closes since it runs off boost pressure.

But then again, open catless downpipe equals rapid boost spikes. So I rarely use my cut out during the colder months.

Originally Posted by Lex If it's a tune issue this is easy to fix. True creep is not a tuning or WGDC issue. It is when WGDC is at 0 and boost still climbs above what your targets are.

That's the definition of a mechanical boost creep, I assumed the OP was talking about a boost creep problem due to the tune and cold weather.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by redboat That's a back yard boost controlled cut out. A lot of VW guys use these or use an E cut out like I have. Only think I don't like about these, is unless you have a bleeder value inside the cabin you can only partially control when it opens or closes since it runs off boost pressure. But then again, open catless downpipe equals rapid boost spikes. So I rarely use my cut out during the colder months. That's the definition of a mechanical boost creep, I assumed the OP was talking about a boost creep problem due to the tune and cold weather.

OP is talking about uncontrolled mechanical boost creep. Zero wgdc and boost going over 24 psi. It's a customer I'm tuning (realized who the OP was talking about last night) My suggestions were add a cat or port the hotside.

[ash4390]

I had boost creep issues when tuning with Lex, ended up throwing a cat in my CS 3" TBE... resolved all my problems!

[blackms3_71]

Originally Posted by ash4390 I had boost creep issues when tuning with Lex, ended up throwing a cat in my CS 3" TBE... resolved all my problems!

Same here.

[865ms3]

Originally Posted by atvfreek OP is talking about uncontrolled mechanical boost creep. Zero wgdc and boost going over 24 psi. It's a customer I'm tuning (realized who the OP was talking about last night) My suggestions were add a cat or port the hotside.

Porting the hotside on my 3071 worked like a champ....but you already knew that

Edit fyi. I hit 26psi on spring pressure(pucker). After port it held 14-16 to redline.

[Lex]

The older GT turbos had bad creep out of the box and porting these was the way to go. The newer GTX ones are better for this and don't really need it. You have to be a little careful since overporting will cause slow spool and boost drop up top.

On the bnr s3 the oem exhaust housing develops cracks around the wg opening so porting that area can shorten the life of the housing.

[redboat]

Originally Posted by Lex The older GT turbos had bad creep out of the box and porting these was the way to go. The newer GTX ones are better for this and don't really need it. You have to be a little careful since overporting will cause slow spool and boost drop up top. On the bnr s3 the oem exhaust housing develops cracks around the wg opening so porting that area can shorten the life of the housing.

Lex

On a BNR, GT, or even the stock K04 with boost creep issues, what's the better solution for most power, reliability, and consistent stable tune?

1.) Add a high flow cat?

2.) switch to EWG via EX mani, and block/lock OEM IWG arm?

[Emew]

Pitty my noobness but I run a catless DP with the stock exhaust and I turned WGDC down by 5-10% from OTS values and this put my boost right at the 20 I'm shooting for on the stock turbo. How does one end up with a similar exhaust flow yet even with 0% WGDC have insane boost creep? If I were to run 5% WGDC I'd assume I'd be boosting like..5 PSI lol.

Just looking to learn more, if anyone could explain how this spike happens?

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by Emew Pitty my noobness but I run a catless DP with the stock exhaust and I turned WGDC down by 5-10% from OTS values and this put my boost right at the 20 I'm shooting for on the stock turbo. How does one end up with a similar exhaust flow yet even with 0% WGDC have insane boost creep? If I were to run 5% WGDC I'd assume I'd be boosting like..5 PSI lol. Just looking to learn more, if anyone could explain how this spike happens?

Variances in intake size, intercooler, exhaust, turbo, etc can all make an impact. No two cars are the same

[skiptowncat]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Variances in intake size, intercooler, exhaust, turbo, etc can all make an impact. No two cars are different.

Don't you mean "no two cars are the same"?

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by skiptowncat Don't you mean "no two cars are the same"?

Yup. Sorry for the typo. Haha. You all get the idea. Bah humbug

[skiptowncat]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Yup. Sorry for the typo. Haha. You all get the idea. Bah humbug

Blame the Christmas "spirits"

[btstarcher]

Because itty bitty turbo?

LOL yeah I'd go with Freek's answer.

[Emew]

So basically even with a wide open waste gate you're still creating so much exhaust flow that the turbo just puts out that insane boost?

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by Emew So basically even with a wide open waste gate you're still creating so much exhaust flow that the turbo just puts out that insane boost?

Yes. On my BNR the wastegate would completely open at 5000 rpms and I was still building boost all the way to the redline.

[redneck4Christ]

Here is an ignorant question. Could the tune be set up to reduce throttle position when boost exceeds a certain amount? In my pea brain that would seem to give enough flow restriction to help? Or are there other problems with this method?

[btstarcher]

I'm no tuner, but I believe that by decreasing throttle position you would also affect many other parameters, such as spark advance, AFR, load, etc. Especially if it drops out of open loop.

[thuglife2334]

i was going back and forth about getting a cat for my CS tbe... after reading all this. i dont even wanna deal with boost creep so ... catted DP it is!!

[skiptowncat]

Weathers warmed up a bit here, no more creep!!