Downpipe installed. A question on fuel pumps.

[stevo443]

Hi everyone!

I have searched the forums and haven't found an answer applicable to my situation, so here goes.

First, My Car:
06 (american 07) MS3.
HDI-GT2 Frontmount
Ebay Downpipe
Cobb Intake & Cold air box
Cobb Rear engine mount.
65000 miles - 105000km
Autotech Fuelpump internals on the way.
Stock ECU tune from a dyno guy.


I have installed an ebay downpipe on my MS3. It was wrong, but had the correct flange so the guy at the exhaust shop modified it to suit. It looks pretty good. The system is 3" from the turbo back with no catalytic converters.

I am booked in for a tune on the 7th August to dial in the difference with the intercooler, new intake and exhaust. My autotech fuel pump internals are on the way from America. I hope they get here in time.

Which brings me to my question. how prone is the car to blowing up without these internals? Should I postpone the tune or is it OK to run stock internals in the short term? I have seen it posted EVERYWHERE that you shouldn't run a DP without them. I don't quite get the taboo of it though as I'm still on the stock turbo... I don't really see any threads telling people that are seeking the same Horsepower without a downpipe to change their internals.

Please don't mistake me for being arrogant, I just would like to know what difference a downpipe makes to the situation.

Thanks for your time, I've attached a picture of the underside of my car and a link to the sound of the exhaust.
I'm not driving my car hard as a precautionary measure. The youtube vid is probably the hardest I've driven it since everything went on, and that was about half throttle - maybe.

Mazdaspeed 3 3" downpipe and full exhaust installed - YouTube

Mazdaspeed 3 3" downpipe and full exhaust installed - YouTube

Exhaust.jpg

[bhamitgeek]

You should have postponed the down pipe .... that should have never made it on the car without the internals.

[stevo443]

I will postpone the tune if they don't get here on time. Not driving it atm at all. What is the reason for this? Is it faster revving and therefore the pump can't keep up or something along those lines?

[6Y MAZDA]

Originally Posted by stevo443 I will postpone the tune if they don't get here on time. Not driving it atm at all. What is the reason for this? Is it faster revving and therefore the pump can't keep up or something along those lines?

Sort of...more free flowing exhaust = more air flow; possibility for boost creep. Basically, as you raise boost pressure, the fuel pump is not able to keep up. Among other things.

[stevo443]

Thank you 6y, That's what I was looking for

[Cujo]

In b4 ZZB

I kid, I kid... but like they said should have waited. :3

[jk_ms3]

This was way too nice. If you had even searched a tiny bit, you'd know not to do a down pipe before you do your internals. That's information that you could have accidentally learned by reading randomly. That's information you get in your welcome PM. Heck, if you look at my introduction thread, it's like the second or third person to post mentioned getting internals before a dp. You literally cannot throw a stone in this forest of info without hitting that particular tree. The "why" part of it may take a little more searching, but not a lot.

You need to work on your search skills, dude. The information here is only valuable if you find it.

Also, consider an etune from one of the guys on here. It's usually cheaper (I don't know what it costs you in New Zealand), and these guys are the bomb-diggity. They know the platform inside and out, having tuned hundreds of speeds each, and can hook you up with exactly the kind of tune you're looking for. All you need is an accessport (which you'll want no matter where you get a tune) and an email account. I always recommend RichTune, but any of the guys in the etuner section on here are great.

[SPEEDO90]

Originally Posted by jk_ms3 This was way too nice. If you had even searched a tiny bit, you'd know not to do a down pipe before you do your internals. That's information that you could have accidentally learned by reading randomly. That's information you get in your welcome PM. Heck, if you look at my introduction thread, it's like the second or third person to post mentioned getting internals before a dp. You literally cannot throw a stone in this forest of info without hitting that particular tree. The "why" part of it may take a little more searching, but not a lot. You need to work on your search skills, dude. The information here is only valuable if you find it. Also, consider an etune from one of the guys on here. It's usually cheaper (I don't know what it costs you in New Zealand), and these guys are the bomb-diggity. They know the platform inside and out, having tuned hundreds of speeds each, and can hook you up with exactly the kind of tune you're looking for. All you need is an accessport (which you'll want no matter where you get a tune) and an email account. I always recommend RichTune, but any of the guys in the etuner section on here are great.

HEY! Okay I know this is an OLDDDDDDDDDDD thread BUT I saw you say etune and I need a good one please! do you know anyone you can recommend that cheap? I have to dial in my downpipe..

[stevo443]

I Google'd ZZB and got a german dentist O.o . Lol, it only has to survive the half hour drive to the dealer now and she'll be safe. I'll postpone the tune.

[stevo443]

jk_MS3, I wanted a personal response as to what effects the dp would have. As you said, I've been told in my intro post, and seen people get told elsewhere many times not to install the downpipe before the internals.

I'm saving for an ap. I've had a look and seen glowing reviews of the e-tunes, like the one you just gave me. I'm getting excited about it! Thanks for your response

[6Y MAZDA]

now i'm wondering...you said you have a "stock ECU tune" by some dyno guy...how did he tune you without an accessport or versatuner??

[stevo443]

I'll ask him when I see him. He may well be using either. He won't let me stick around for the tuning because of "distracting him" and the dyno is at another place. He just dropped me off in town for the day while he did his thing. The sooner I can get an AP the better. He is 3 1/2 - 4hrs away from me and he's the closest person that will even look at tuning it. Etunes are sounding so good!

[6Y MAZDA]

Originally Posted by stevo443 I'll ask him when I see him. He may well be using either. He won't let me stick around for the tuning because of "distracting him" and the dyno is at another place. He just dropped me off in town for the day while he did his thing. The sooner I can get an AP the better. He is 3 1/2 - 4hrs away from me and he's the closest person that will even look at tuning it. Etunes are sounding so good!

So for all you know....he hasnt actually done shit to it. He just tells you he tuned it. Sketchy.

EDIT: I remember who you are now...the dyno guy kicking you out for the day while he tuned is what reminded me. You were told in 2 different other threads to install HPFP internals before downpipe. I would not go back to that "dyno guy." Proceed at your own discretion, but you were warned already...

[stevo443]

I do get a dyno sheet with before and afters. In NZ he advertises in the performance car magazines and has a bit of a name. If I could stay with him, that'd give me much more confidence.

[deadlandxtreme]

= your car if you continue not to heed the advice of others on here. Follow the golden rules that have been laid forth by other's experiences.

[SneakySin]

First off, if i'm paying a reputable dyno tuner to tune my car, better believe I'm not gonna just leave my car because he's "distracted". Sounds shady as fuck if you ask me. Do it while I'm there or let someone else get the money. I've never heard some shit like that in my life.

[Spec]

Don't be a fucking idiot. Watch your car while its being tuned or get an e-tune. Does this guy have any experience with the disi engine? Too many shady performance shops and too many shady people for me just to take your word on it.

You'll be lucky if he doesn't actually tune it IMO. He's probably going to lock your ecu and with out tuning it via access port you better hope he unlocks it when you get one and/or is still in business.

Don't half ass it. Get all the right stuff the first time and research. If you don't I hope your engine blows up and you learn the hard way.

[stevo443]

It looks like they use ECUTEK
Dyno

In the link above you'll see their mps. He said it placed highly in a rally (pretty sure targa) on his map when I got the first tune. I've been running on their first tune on stock everything for a year now with no worries at 285hp. I'll switch to AP as soon as I can, but in the meantime I'll have to live my nz life of being far away from anything.

I'll just insist on hanging around with my car on this tune and take the business 6hrs away to torque performance in Auckland if he refuses.

I can't stress enough that I'm waiting for the internals to come before I drive it. It's sitting in the shed until they go in, yet everyone thinks I'm not listening to them. I've got my answer of the effect of the downpipe, but value the tuning advice too.

[MZRSPEED]

@Raider;

Figured this would be a good spot to insert one of your down pipe without internal meme's

[Raider]

Originally Posted by MZRSPEED @Raider; Figured this would be a good spot to insert one of your down pipe without internal meme's

Yes, very much so.

[6Y MAZDA]

You are paying $995 to $1495 for a tune??? plus $250 per revision...wtfff

AP (v3) = $650...used v2= ~$400
E-tune = ~$200-250 and revisions usually $50-100.


Also, i'd like to know how he got you to 285whp without downpipe and stock internals...and what kind of fuel?
Without e85 or meth these cars top out right around 280-285whp when "fully bolted".

[skiptowncat]

Originally Posted by 6Y MAZDA You are paying $995 to $1495 for a tune??? plus $250 per revision...wtfff AP (v3) = $650...used v2= ~$400 E-tune = ~$200-250 and revisions usually $50-100. Also, i'd like to know how he got you to 285whp without downpipe and stock internals...and what kind of fuel? Without e85 or meth these cars top out right around 280-285whp when "fully bolted".

He never said whp, I'm betting it's at the flywheel.

[soul.survivor]

guy must be tuning via dyno cf.

[Payne Racing 67]

Nice ride man. Sounds good. Just be careful without the FP internals, don't go WOT until you get them in.

[jk_ms3]

Wow. That's a freaking ton of money for a tune.

[jdmage_mx5]

I payed Lex at stratified $250 and got a clean reliable tune. He also let me know what was changing on each revision. I learned a lot in the process also. I would only use one of the MSF etuners if it was me. Either way good luck with everything.

[captain slow]

Exchange rate guys NZD and USD are different.

its more like $783-$1176 in US currency. So that's how you justify it guys....

[jk_ms3]

Originally Posted by captain slow Exchange rate guys NZD and USD are different. its more like $783-$1176 in US currency. So that's how you justify it guys....

Well when you put it that way...

[stevo443]

He quoted me $450 NZD (353.97US) for this follow-up tune on the phone.
The two standard fuels in NZ are 91 and 95 octane. If you're lucky enough to live on the main highway (State highway 1), 98 is readily available too. I'm tuned to 95.

Thanks for the input, I'll get tuned with him this last time to get my car safe as I need to be able to drive it. Then it's AP all the way

[speed_freak91]

Originally Posted by stevo443 He quoted me $450 NZD (353.97US) for this follow-up tune on the phone. The two standard fuels in NZ are 91 and 95 octane. If you're lucky enough to live on the main highway (State highway 1), 98 is readily available too. I'm tuned to 95. Thanks for the input, I'll get tuned with him this last time to get my car safe as I need to be able to drive it. Then it's AP all the way

Why pay this guy another $350 for another revision when you can buy a used AP V2 for a little bit more money? Buy AP now plus etune will be roughly $650. Pay this guy $350 for revision + AP down the road + Etune comes out to $1000+... Shit dont make sense.

Honestly, I would just limp car around until an AP shows up.

[El_Diablo]

I wouldn't even bother. Revert to a stock tune with internals & order an AP then proceed to get Freaktuned.

[jk_ms3]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you'll be "safe" without a tune. Just don't WOT until you get your internals in. Then save your money from the overpriced tuner and get an AP and freaking awesome etune. But it's your money, so feel free to throw it away any way you want to.

[6Y MAZDA]

Workaholics- You're such a dumb idiot! - YouTube

Workaholics- You're such a dumb idiot! - YouTube

[MSMS3]

OK let me first ask all you guys offering opinions have you ever run a gen 1 MS3 with catless downpipe, stock tune and stock fuel pump? If you have and are speaking from authority, then I will stand corrected if my experience differs from your own. My point of view, set forth below is based on actual experience with that combo.

I ran a catless downpipe for about 15,000 miles before getting a tune and about 40,000 miles total before getting the pump internals upgraded. Was that wise? In retrospect, no. Was it harmful? No. First of all, I did monitor and data logged. I knew what my fuel pressure was. I knew what my boost was. I knew what my AFR's were, I knew whether I was experiencing knock.

Here's what I found out:

I never got boost creep, although I was concerned about the prospect.

However, I did not have a full 3 inch all the way back. I'm 3 inch dp/rp into the stock CBE. Nor do I have a FMIC or bigger TMIC.

What I did get was 17-18 psi boost tartet on stock tune with gradual fade toward 6,000, when the stock tune ends the fun with throttle closing.

I also got nasty boost spikes of up to 21 psi for very short duration if going WOT under 4000 rpm. Those spikes were what scared the shit out of me. Since our stock boost sensor runs out of voltage range at about 21.5 or 22 psi, those spikes could have been much higher. The HT tune resolved the boost spikes while keeping the downpipe's improved boost curve with nice 17-18 psi target with more gradual taper and good, usable power all the way to redline.

The other thing I learned from that experience was boost blow out due to stock spark plug gap. Even on stock tune. The downpipe raised boost that much. Reducing gap to .028" is well known here as appropriate or necessary when going with a tune with higher than stock boost levels. That also applies with catless dp because it raises boost significantly.

Eventually, I did see pump pressure becoming a little erratic under WOT full load conditions. I was sensitive to the possibility and watching for it. I had not been happy with the quality of some of the early pump internals and was holding off. But then a couple very dangerous drops down to 1100 psi, although recovery was quick. Pump just could not keep up with flow demand. So, then the AutoTech internals were available, had proved themselves to be very high quality. I made the upgrade. Of course, when pump pressure started acting up, I babied the car and stayed out of WOT until I did the upgrade.

Now I'm at almost 90,000 miles. Engine is as strong as ever.

Every car is going to be different. What works for one person or is fail for another is only anectotal evidence, and is unreliable. All things said, however, the key is knowing what the engine is doing. YOUR engine in YOUR car. That means monitoring. Because the risk is there of pump failure or of overboost or those nasty boost spikes I encountered, I strongly caution OP to avoid WOT unless he is actively monitoring and knows what the engine is doing.

Even when he gets his internals and gets them installed, it is insane to rely on a tuner to decide if your engine is safe. Monitor your shit. Learn what you need to be keeping up with. Datalog and let others here look at those logs. If you have a US or US compatible ECU and can get AP that is a good choice with an e-tune from one of the excellent and proven Mazda DISI tuners on this forum. Even with my tuning choice, HT, which does work surprisingly well, despite the naysayers, I would not run any aftermarket tune or any mods that raise boost, load limits and or flow, especially on the exhaust side, without monitoring.

That's my view, for what it may be worth.

[speed_freak91]

Im not trying to comment on running stock internals with catless downpipe is bad... It just seems like this guy tuning his car is being shaddy as fuck... No way would I trust a tuner like that. Also, to sum up what I stated before, why pay so much money to get tuned just to buy an ap and etune later down the road? Waste of money unless op is so rich that he uses $100 to wipe his own ass with.

[L3THAL6]

In before....

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/p...BlownBlock.jpg

Just be careful and get internals in that car right meow!!

[scubasteve711]

If your going to get and AP, then don't waste your money on a tune because you're just going to need another one. Buy the AP, get the internals in and the get an etune from one of guys on here. It will cost you less over all and you'll get a tune from someone a heck of a of more familiar with the platform than that guy that is local.

[stevo443]

It is indeed at the flywheel - If I can nanna my car around on stock internals that's excellent. I'm not stupid enough to go WOT on it considering it's the only car that I own lol.

[6Y MAZDA]

Originally Posted by skiptowncat He never said whp, I'm betting it's at the flywheel.

Originally Posted by stevo443 It is indeed at the flywheel - If I can nanna my car around on stock internals that's excellent. I'm not stupid enough to go WOT on it considering it's the only car that I own lol.

i did consider that, but he mentioned he got Dyno printouts....so how did you get flywheel readings from a dyno, OP?

[skiptowncat]

Originally Posted by 6Y MAZDA i did consider that, but he mentioned he got Dyno printouts....so how did you get flywheel readings from a dyno, OP?

Over here it's the way it's done to keep the ill informed happy. Enter a magical number for drivetrain loss until the customer is happy.
A friend of mine couldn't understand why I kept beating him in his impreza when we both had similar bhp figures. I had to explain whp is what matters, I only ever ask for the wheel figures when I go to a dyno now.