Dale' BNRS3v2 install thread & self tuning experience

[Easter Bunny]

Is your meth on or off at this point?

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by ms6mil looking better, any chance you post up a logs of the last VD's, just for comparison. Are you still making general increases to WGDC? i.e. ~15-20% across the rpm or have you started incrementally increasing in each range to sustain @ 18psi

I was actually the exact same WGDC to this point (v0.4) and the general value was holding even across the board; from v0.5 I need close up a little bit around 3500 and open up past 4500 for that upward taper. So, from this point on, it will be incremental in each range.

Here is the v0.4 result compared to where I started. Definitely started feeling the gains in the butt dyno. Log attached. I can feel that the BNR spools up a little slower with my current tune; it doesn't hit 20psi until around 3800RPM. I could get the k04 up to 20psi @ 3300RPM. I'm gonna try to up the WG at 3000 to see if it will spool up faster. I used to have to open the WG a lot to contain that initial boost spike of the k04. The BNR doesn't seem to have that problem.

Injector duty cycle is 83-84% at redline. I need to read the max DC to run the injectors at.

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Is your meth on or off at this point?

Tuning on meth. I probably should have gone without to start and then built up, but I was too anxious so I am working it backwards.

[Agent_Orange]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Tuning on meth. I probably should have gone without to start and then built up, but I was too anxious so I am working it backwards.

Looks like that's working just fine.

Nice results.

[JgamB]

Looks like your IWG is faring quite well also. Specv is having a helluva time with his

Nice to see your early revisions already moving that speed6 along quite nicely. There's lots of turbo left in there.

[Agent_Orange]

^^^

[dale_gribble]

I just realized that I need to remap the ignition timing curve to better match the later hit of the bnr. I don't want a bunch of timing leading into the spool up near peak torque.

[dale_gribble]

I drove the car to work for the first time. I definitely MUST get Load/Boost error compensations back in place. I got some fuel or throttle cut going between gears. I think the car got up to 24.5psi and hit cut when doing 2nd-3rd pulls. I have fuel cut and throttle close limits at 23.50psi so no surprise there.

I at least wanted to make sure the WG was behaving predictably which it is, so it's time to put that back in.

[dale_gribble]

Ok, here's where I am at. Started adding some timing and it's starting to feel FAST. I can clearly see my WOT maf cal is off by about 2% past 5k. Makes sense, I've never hit MAF voltage above ~4.23v to even cal the higher section. Little KR blips (.35-.7), nothing consistent and nothing >1.

Due to the MAF cal being off at WOT a bit, I think it's skewing the calculated load down which is in turn causing the turbo to boost too high to try and hit the target loads per gear (2.02); i.e. the actual calculated load is higher than what is being reported. I pulled some wastegate, dropped the load target to 2.00 across the board, and gave the Load Error Compensation a little less room to work on the left side of the table. I don't really want to see 24psi of boost yet. You would be surprised what small changes when setting the load targets. .02 or .05 can make a decent difference from my experience.

I added a little timing above 4,500 and pulled a little bit at 4k because I'm still seeing a few degrees of timing during the spool up. With a WOT maf cal, I think the car will be happier and steadily faster without boosting over 22psi.

[ItsNox]

Thanks for taking us along for the ride DG this is some good shit. Really like how you're updating with each rev and what changes you made.

Sent via Tapafail

[rolanblack]

Dale does that because he loves us

[Lex]

The tune is coming along nicely and I like the shape of the curves.

[JgamB]

Juicy numbers for a chubby speed6 and AWD losses - throw us a bone and put a log up at AP log viewer

I want to see ALL of your sexy curves.

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by JgamB Juicy numbers for a chubby speed6 and AWD losses - throw us a bone and put a log up at AP log viewer I want to see ALL of your sexy curves.

Here ya go-

AP log viewer

[JgamB]

Mmm yes looks like a couple more degrees of spark left to feather in.

I'm hitting 24.5psi at 6.5K and power is still climbing - I may have underestimated this "mid-turbo" upgrade in a good way. What a great bang for the buck.

[dale_gribble]

Thanks @Lex; in case others don't know, the base tune for this turbo started out as a SUPER STABLE Stratified tune by Lex that we finished about a year ago. There was a definite learning curve to self tune and I had trepidation about self tuning, but I basically had adventure with security because the base map was so stable. If I ever started seeing weirdness or had issues, I could go back to the base Stratified tune I started with and try again. I wouldn't be so confident basing my own tune off of an OTS boost based map honestly. I could always look at a table from the Stratified tune and begin to understand why Lex did it how he did. I always know that if I start to get over my head that I can get pro help which is nice.

I understood ignition advance, MAF cal, basic wastegate operation, AFRs, load targets, boost targets, etc. on this motor after reading for hours on this forum and playing with the individual values. I think what finally got me over the hump in self tuning was when I blew the stock wastegate duty cycle table away and rebuilt it and the wastegate dynamics with a 3-port EBCS for the k04 and got the k04 boost control stupid tight. I highly recommend doing that for anyone wanting to self tune.

[dale_gribble]

Alright, I would say tune is 97% done; I may have to make small adjustments here and there to dial in the wg dynamics with weather changes. So it took about 10 revisions, 20 passes and 3 days to dial in. This turbo was pretty damn easy to tune IMO; granted my turbo is working good, but the GS EBCS in 3-port is doing it's job well too.

I could build the low end torque up a little bit with some more timing and boost and I could probably add a little timing up top but I feel I've got it pretty close to where it could be. Power comes on clean and I can't explain how much different the car drives/feels with that pull to redline. Changes the car completely. First time I ever bounced off the rev limiter in 4th gear a few times with authority, I'll tell you that. It just pulls and pulls and pulls until the rev limiter kicks in.

I'm going to start stacking up pre/post BNR results for some fun soon.

For the graph, I am reporting Dynojet default CF with SAE values from the days' runs. I know I'm in the ballpark of 350WHP, take maybe 10-15hp. I'll dyno soon for verification numbers. 400bhp is no joke. The car ended up exactly where I wanted it. What's amazing is how well all of the different parts play so well together. Even the cheap turbo header is working great after resurfacing/welding. Meth system is doing well. Even though the PNP IM didn't show gains with K04 by itself, I bet it would show gains on the BNR now.

Here is the BNR when I started tuning vs. where I finished tuning.

[dale_gribble]

Ok, here's my car with a well tuned k04 vs. my now tuned BNR. Any questions?

[JgamB]

[dale_gribble]

Lol. Man, that is one appropriate MEME if ever I saw one. I can't WAIT to do a 65F 4th gear pull so I can really get nitty gritty with k04 vs. BNR, especially in the time domain. If you don't clearly know the relationship between HP and TQ, it will be abundantly clear when I plot the results from 60-100MPH k04 vs. bnr in the time domain.

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Lol. Man, that is one appropriate MEME if ever I saw one. I can't WAIT to do a 65F 4th gear pull so I can really get nitty gritty with k04 vs. BNR, especially in the time domain. If you don't clearly know the relationship between HP and TQ, it will be abundantly clear when I plot the results from 60-100MPH k04 vs. bnr in the time domain.

please do! I'm excited to see it. It's been fun watching your progress on this tune and seeing the difference. You said final so are you not going to push the turblow anymore than what you are right now? I'm on the S3 v1 and I want to see you push the v2 and see what you can put down

[Lex]

When we were working together last year I always knew you had the interest as well as the ability to self tune. Glad you could use what we worked on to build on and based on these plots it's a well dialled in machine on the BNR! Has both the right amount of go and show.

[dale_gribble]

Ok, so here's a true 4th gear vs 4th gear pull from k04 vs. BNR at 65F. Remember that I am spraying methanol and I believe the header and PNP IM helped bring out the gains of the BNR. The blue lines are the BNR, the redlines were my baseline with k04 prior to BNR.



Let's compare some logs to see what the BNR is doing differently. It really isn't a surprise. It's all about airflow, right? The BNR does take longer to come up to speed than the k04, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

Here, we can actually see that the k04 outflows the BNR until ~4,500rpms. This graph represents % increase of airflow of BNR vs. k04. Does the BNR hit later than k04? Definitely. However, since the BNR increases the power band out to redline, even though you are giving up some of the powerband down low, the tradeoff is a no brainer. The BNR quickly catches up and surpasses the k04.

Personally after running with the k04, I would be concerned that the bigger turbos would start chewing away at the low-mid range even more; whereas the BNR takes a while to catch up to the k04, I imagine a big turbo would take even longer.





Here you can see the injectors are doing quite a bit more work. The BNR gets pretty close to tapping the fueling capability of the stock injectors out on 91 pump gas.



Here are some comparisons of acceleration times. BNR is obviously faster 50-100 and 60-100. Based on this, I have calculated and estimated the BNR would bring my 1/4 miles time down by a second or so; if I'm a good driver, a high 12 should be obtainable.

[blackms3_71]

Not taking shit i just though the bnr on meth would do better then 341 peak hp?

[dale_gribble]

Oh, fair enough. 1) Im on 91 pump gas and 2) I am running the D07; D07 is too insufficient of size to work as 'aux' fueling; for me it's a charge cooler and gives me a slight octane bump. I would have to run a D10 to pump enough meth through to function as aux fueling to continue exploring higher power levels.

Guys can definitely get higher power with more timing as a result of E85 mixes and higher meth intake.

I hit my target goals for the BNR, so there's no reason to push out past them.

Finally, 341WHP on my speed6 with this setup is going to probably make 350-360WHP on a Speed3.

[lilred]

@grease_monkey; just to further make you want more turbo.

tapafuck

[blackms3_71]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Oh, fair enough. 1) Im on 91 pump gas and 2) I am running the D07; D07 is too insufficient of size to work as 'aux' fueling; for me it's a charge cooler and gives me a slight octane bump. I would have to run a D10 to pump enough meth through to function as aux fueling to continue exploring higher power levels. Guys can definitely get higher power with more timing as a result of E85 mixes and higher meth intake. I hit my target goals for the BNR, so there's no reason to push out past them. Finally, 341WHP on my speed6 with this setup is going to probably make 350-360WHP on a Speed3.

Very true again wasnt calling u out about it and plus i did forget this was a speed 6 so more drivetrain loss. They are good numbers tho so not taking anything away from that

[dale_gribble]

NP, not butthurt at all.

[rolanblack]

Wow... I was hesitant about meth but reading your past threads and others and see all that data... it would be dumb for me not to go that route

[SarcasticOne]

Can't see pictures

[Lex]

One slight warning about meth - because the system takes a little to ramp up make sure you test going WOT at higher RPMs as well such as at 4.5-5k. Due to the quick spool of the turbo you might see some knock from meth not being available quickly enough.

[SpeedRebirth]

Originally Posted by blackms3_71 Very true again wasnt calling u out about it azd plus i did forget this was a speed 6 so more drivetrain loss. They are good numbers tho so not taking anything away from that

340awhp is about 380whp with FWD. So he's making good power Drivetrain loss ftl.

You could probably put down 350-360awhp with some more fueling

[Mazdazilla6]

Great numbers and very thorough with the tune! I really wanna see what the s3 can do on E25 on a speed6.

[mxlplx71]

just curious why dynojet and not vd 1.01 correction?
love your threads, always detailed and helpful.
one of your older threads actually helped convince me to finally run meth.

[dale_gribble]

1.01CF isn't correct for the MS6 in my experience; I have learned that the default Dynojet with the SAE correction factor for temp/baro gives me the closest numbers to dyno runs I have done. If I had to guess, the CF for the MS6 is probably around 1.03-1.06 somewhere, but the SAE correction is better for comparison between summer/winter runs and around country.

1.01CF for my MS6 fully bolted with meth and BNR puts my car at 320WHP (without SAE CF). That is definitely not right.

Default CF for my MS6 for the same run puts my car at 350-360WHP which is probably a little on the high side.

Default CF + SAE correction puts me at 340 which is pretty much dead on with the car's mods and other cars I have compared it to.

[memin]

well time for a dyno!!!! to confirm the real # a bnr S3 can produce..

[Ozynigma]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Ok, here's my car with a well tuned k04 vs. my now tuned BNR. Any questions?

No questions, awesome outcome, well done.

I am trying to work out the best turbo option to upgrade the K04 582 on my CX7. It looks like even a well tuned K04 runs out of puff early.

[Ferdball]

Let's play. I know a good 60-100 spot nearby. The dude with the bigger turbo buys lunch.

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by Ferdball Let's play. I know a good 60-100 spot nearby. The dude with the bigger turbo buys lunch.

Sure. The slowz buys lunch tho.

[Ferdball]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Sure. The slowz buys lunch tho.

Rolled tacos Thursday?