The best mod I have ever done!!!!

[phantomspeed3]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 A straightener is the same thing as smoothing out air velocity. The bottom line is that there is not enough width to fully develop laminar flow which is needed for the maf, and secondly the flow will become turbulent again at an inch (approximately 5 times the width). 20 dollars for a screen that barely works, please. The maf housing will work better then the mesh alone, and if you want truely laminar and straight airflow then you should use the honeycomb, see picture, much cheaper too.

You know what, i put this on my car and got great results, so don't come in here and scare people away from it, its well worth the money and will work exactly the same as your honeycomb crap you're turning people to, don't be so haterish

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 A straightener is the same thing as smoothing out air velocity. The bottom line is that there is not enough width to fully develop laminar flow which is needed for the maf, and secondly the flow will become turbulent again at an inch (approximately 5 times the width). 20 dollars for a screen that barely works, please. The maf housing will work better then the mesh alone, and if you want truely laminar and straight airflow then you should use the honeycomb, see picture, much cheaper too.

It's proven, it works.

Where's your proof? You keep trashing this like it's a pile a crap, why are there logs and people saying it DOES work?
If you don't like it, leave. Either prove that it's snake oil, or find another thread to troll.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by phantomspeed3 You know what, i put this on my car and got great results, so don't come in here and scare people away from it, its well worth the money and will work exactly the same as your honeycomb crap you're turning people to, don't be so haterish

I'm not trying to promote a product, because it's not my product. Honeycomb crap? Yeah because that's why so many people use honeycomb structures (wind tunnels, industry, other tuners) You know what I should just drop out of my last quarter of engineering. You know I only have 2 weeks left, but thanks to you I realized that I just wasted 5 years of my life and countless dollars to only learn crap. I know fluid dynamics well. I never said that the product wouldn't work, did I? It will work but will have limited effects compared to an elongated screen like a honeycomb. Not to mention the edges are staight helping to develop a laminar profile sooner.

What I'm saying in is don't be a mindless fool and buy into everything. You have to question things, let tuners listen to you and what you want. You should want something with R&D not looks like something you can buy yourself at home depot. I'm not trying to scare people away. I'm not trying to say this product doesn't work. I'm trying to share my knowledge to other people, including ptperformance here. I'm glad you're butt dyno shows improvements, and I'm glad that testing shows this helps, but why settle for less when you can have more for cheaper. Yes you can pay 20 plus shipping and handling for a meager cut grate and epoxy, but wouldn't it be more worth while to pay less maybe do a little back of the napkin hand calculations and work to get better results. I thought that's what this site is.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Eazy It's proven, it works. Where's your proof? You keep trashing this like it's a pile a crap, why are there logs and people saying it DOES work? If you don't like it, leave. Either prove that it's snake oil, or find another thread to troll.

Read carefully into my words I never said it doesn't work, just it's limited. Sorry for giving sharing my thoughts, opinions, and knowledge.

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Read carefully into my words I never said it doesn't work, just it's limited. Sorry for giving sharing my thoughts, opinions, and knowledge.

I guess i misinterpreted your post earlier about it being turbulent after an inch. Alternate opinions are fine, I just read it as "it won't work, but this will"

[Erich]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 a screen that barely works

Actual use has proven otherwise. Both through observation and logging.

[evidence]

So I picked this up without much faith thinking whatever, 20$, well see. Drove for a bit to get my butt dyno calibrated, but it took me a while to cut the screen and fit it on properly, drove for a bit and it felt smooth, but I chalked it up to placebo. Swapped it off again and drove a few minutes, immediatelly put it back on and went for a final spin.

I think it really has made a difference at low throttle, which includes during shifts, and light tip in. At light tip in and letting the peddle off quickly was a bit jerky/hesitant before, where it now feels smooth. Possibly the current housing doesnt do much without heavy air? Still interested in hearing how this restricts power, though that would be something hard to do with how variable this car.

Best mod ever? Hardly. Worth 20$? Seems that way so far..

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Erich Actual use has proven otherwise. Both through observation and logging.

Sorry, that was a little hasty and out of context on my part. The screen WILL work, but like i stated to a limited effect compared to a better engineering honeycomb design with a eighth inch ior fourth inch thickness instead of the thickness of the wires. The wire mesh will make flow more laminar but not fully laminar and a turbulent flow will soon develop. So If you're using the wire mesh, the closer you can get it to the maf the better (don't obstruct sampling portion of it) . But a honeycomb design like the picture i posted has more depth to it which will create more laminar flow and will also allow flow to stay turbulent for longer allowing a little more leeway in where you put the air flow staightener at in your intake tube.

Basically I'm saying is that there is room for improvement and I'm saying that why not just pick up some easily sourced honeycomb mesh, cut it and fit it when it will create better air flow then just wire mesh. I don't have hard numbers, because fluid dynamics sucks big hair balls due to intense partial differential equations. But maybe I'll get some heuristics to show some numbers. And I'm lazy. But in most instances what I see what works the best is something that has depth to it (the longer helps develop more laminar flow) and not a wire mesh.

I applaud ptperformance in the modification, but I also want to challange them to make a better product for the money. I want to see something more legit and more along the lines of this
APR stage III air straightener


or Halltech air straightener for corvettes
http://www.halltechsystems.com/Photo...uctCode=HC.125

[johnnyspeed6]

Im not an engineer by any stretch but It makes sense to me .. since I am little slow I looked it up .... nice post Mr...

Laminar flow, sometimes known as streamline flow, occurs when a fluid flows in parallel layers, with no disruption between the layers. In fluid dynamics, laminar flow is a flow regime characterized by high momentum diffusion, low momentum convection, pressure and velocity independent from time. It is the opposite of turbulent flow. In nonscientific terms laminar flow is "smooth," while turbulent flow is "rough."

[FantasmoNegro]

Originally Posted by johnnyspeed6 Im not an engineer by any stretch but It makes sense to me .. since I am little slow I looked it up .... nice post Mr... Laminar flow, sometimes known as streamline flow, occurs when a fluid flows in parallel layers, with no disruption between the layers. In fluid dynamics, laminar flow is a flow regime characterized by high momentum diffusion, low momentum convection, pressure and velocity independent from time. It is the opposite of turbulent flow. In nonscientific terms laminar flow is "smooth," while turbulent flow is "rough."

So Watson, on this subject, what is your deduction?

[johnnyspeed6]

Originally Posted by Sleeper 362 So Watson, on this subject, what is your deduction?

Well sir .. I installed it on my fujita CAI .... seemed like it had a "smoothing" effect to the car ... biggest diff. I saw was the lack of low rpm higher gear hesitation .. and by that I mean 3k rpm in 3rd with a little push on the petal doesnt have that slight jerk or bump to it .. Its by no means a miracle cure for the car but it actually did seem to smooth things out a little better .. and again .. no engineer but I think its worth the time to try it out .. if you do install it and dont like it take it out ... fck it, its only 20 bucks .. u dig?

[LBV]

I'm sure the honeycomb is better at pure "laminar flow" but who says you need THAT in this application? In other words, how much better is the honeycomb going to be over the screen being used here by PTP and being used by OEM's the world over? The term "diminishing returns" comes to mind here.

Plus you'd have to fab up something like the Corvette guys did to insert into the airstream somehow 'cause you ain't gonna be able to bend the honeycomb over an intake lip and clamp that down like you can with the screen material.

I don't have any of these products but I just wanted to point out the diminishing returns comment and the fact you can't easily retro-fit the honeycomb.

[FantasmoNegro]

All I am asking is that "Is throttle tip in worth possibly loosing a race?" I wanna see before and afer dynos yall. It may be smoother because you just brought the cars power output closer to its intended power levels. I E its closer to the power you were making when stock. I think it could work and will buy it if it doesn't cost more than 1-2 hp to have in there.

[Obey the Speed]

Here's an idea regarding the honeycomb air straightener:

Cant we just stack up some of these screens to create a "thicker" screen? Of course the goal would be to align the mesh so you dont reduce the size of the openings. I apologize in advance if this is an absurd idea.

[phantom3]

I believe the ideas behind this are a little backwards. The mesh doesn't create laminar flow resulting in a better reading, in fact it the opposite. Laminar flow is smooth and messes up the MAF reading (Don't flame keep reading). The mesh creates very small swirls making it easier if our hot wire MAF to read the air flow. I used to have a problem with my 300zx where if you pushed the clutch in at highway speeds the car would stall. (Greddy air filter). The reason for that is the air goes laminar (smooth wit little to no turbulence) and the MAF cannot read the flow properly. The simple fix for me was actually 1 strip of duct tape on the filter. It cause enough turbulence that the MAF could read the air flow. The cross section of the wires is round... round is not aerodynamic. Take a look at the link and you'll see what I'm talking about.

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/air_flow.jpg

You can see how a hundred little wires will create a lot of turbulence, albeit very uniform turbulence. This is what helps.

I'm not trashing this idea, in fact I am doing this mod today. I just want people to understand why/how it works.

[KayWhy]

Im comming from a GM vehicle. My throttle body had the maf comb about 1 - 1.5 inches away from the Maf itself. When it was removed i noticed no difference at lower RPMs except a little better throttle response. BUT when high RPMs were hit the car definitly had a bit more power. Again, not saying it has a big difference in our mazdas. at WOT the comb was a hinderance to air flow, well of course when your going WOT you want as much air as possible almost to the point that a maf reading isnt going to mean to much because its probably the same if not higher than with a comb/screen. Under daily driving it should no doubtfully increase driveability because you dont have the same amount of air being sucked into the intake so you need to direct air over the maf evenly so it recieves a valid reading. i have no doubt that this product would work, after all its almost common sense but i would like to see a before scan @ WOT and an after with the screen @ WOT as well as normal driving conditions. Thats just my .02

[phantom3]

The spacing and diameter of the wires is going to determine how much of a restriction the screen creates (obviously). That is why PTP said not to use window screening. Home Depot sells some coarse mesh that I'm going to pick up today and try ($10 CDN for a roll. not sure how big). If the mesh does cause a restriction at WOT i think people would notice... regardless a dyno could put this to rest.

[labikesrcool]

fwiw turbulent flow is more effective at exchanging heat than laminar. in injection molds they try to get as much turbulence as possible to cool them. i wonder if the turbulent flow is making the maf read a different than actual reading by cooling the wires differently for x amount of air. kind of throwing off the calibration a bit for the maf.

[CruisinSpeed6]

[LBV]

You know what the funny thing is about all of this? The MAF sensor wire isn't even in the airstream! It's tucked up inside the sensor ... the IAT sensor wire is the only thing directly in the path of the airflow.

[I<3Groceries]

Originally Posted by LBV You know what the funny thing is about all of this? The MAF sensor wire isn't even in the airstream! It's tucked up inside the sensor ... the IAT sensor wire is the only thing directly in the path of the airflow.

That's what I was about to type.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by Sleeper 362 MOst GM guys descreen their MAF and its worth 2-3 hp with some reportedly gaining 5 from just doing that alone.

Anyone that descreens a GM MAF is an idiot unless they have a full blown tuning solution to rescale the MAF sensor parameters. Even then, the MAF reads sooooooooooooo inconsistent that from one run to the next the MAF readings are all over the place. Make a correction and the next time the correction needs to have gone the other direction down the scale...

No gain in doing that unless you're running rich as it simply leans out by altering the effective load table. 2-3 HP or even 5 is within dyno error range from run to run, and not worth doing because of the tuning headaches it causes.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by LBV I'm sure the honeycomb is better at pure "laminar flow" but who says you need THAT in this application? In other words, how much better is the honeycomb going to be over the screen being used here by PTP and being used by OEM's the world over? The term "diminishing returns" comes to mind here. Plus you'd have to fab up something like the Corvette guys did to insert into the airstream somehow 'cause you ain't gonna be able to bend the honeycomb over an intake lip and clamp that down like you can with the screen material. I don't have any of these products but I just wanted to point out the diminishing returns comment and the fact you can't easily retro-fit the honeycomb.

Well It would be nice to know wouldn't it. We won't know until it has been tried. If there are such diminished returns then why are the majority of air screens not wire meshes? Yes the great thing about the wire mesh is it can be bent around a lip, but with a little ingenuity it should and can be done for about the same price of $20 dollars. The Halltech site that I posted has the screen and a housing for $30 dollars. Hell I just want the best for the community, I would like someone to test on our cars. I know the honeycomb structure will create more laminar, smoother flow. Now what we need is to see how well it works on these cars, and the difference between the the two

[QuickSpool]

I emailed them to see what the specs on their unit is. Diameter etc.

[Hot Shot]

I still say that I don't see any benefit of this piece over the air straightener that someone like JSCspeed sells for $6. I bought that and installed it last night. So far driving the 50 miles or so I've put on it, it does feel a little smoother in part throttle scenarios. Still waiting a few more miles to do some WOT logs.

[FantasmoNegro]

Originally Posted by bnoon Anyone that descreens a GM MAF is an idiot unless they have a full blown tuning solution to rescale the MAF sensor parameters. Even then, the MAF reads sooooooooooooo inconsistent that from one run to the next the MAF readings are all over the place. Make a correction and the next time the correction needs to have gone the other direction down the scale... No gain in doing that unless you're running rich as it simply leans out by altering the effective load table. 2-3 HP or even 5 is within dyno error range from run to run, and not worth doing because of the tuning headaches it causes.

REALLY? it is done so often on Camaros its called one of the "free mods". Go to any LS1 board and type in free mods and EVERY single one of them have it done. I doubt all of them are wrong.


Here is a thread about it on LS1 tech and its as confused and convoluted as this one is. But the grand agreement is that it doesn't hurt the car and it has helped some.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/new-ls...-question.html

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Sleeper 362 REALLY? it is done so often on Camaros its called one of the "free mods". Go to any LS1 board and type in free mods and EVERY single one of them have it done. I doubt all of them are wrong. Here is a thread about it on LS1 tech and its as confused and convoluted as this one is. But the grand agreement is that it doesn't hurt the car and it has helped some. Descreening MAF question? - LS1TECH

If you have to fight and do a mod for 2-3hp you know you're slow hahah.

[thezfunk]

I am going to go out on a limb here so bare with me.

One of the reasons I bought my CP-E CAI is the research that they put into it. If I remember correctly, they chose to restrict their piping to 2.5" around the air sensor to replicate stock conditions for the sensor. They found that 3" pipes were allowing too much unmetered air past the sensor. Is this screen just doing the same thing...(don't take this the wrong way)compensating for a poor 3" intake design?

Anyone with a CP-E intake try this with any noticeable results?

[ATE BALLER]

No, CPE stepped their intake down to 2.75" because at the time, there was no flash available to calebrate the MAF sensor to compensate for the larger diameter. This screen reduces the turbulance of the air, so that the MAF sensor gets a more steady and accurate reading.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by Sleeper 362 REALLY? it is done so often on Camaros its called one of the "free mods". Go to any LS1 board and type in free mods and EVERY single one of them have it done. I doubt all of them are wrong. Here is a thread about it on LS1 tech and its as confused and convoluted as this one is. But the grand agreement is that it doesn't hurt the car and it has helped some. Descreening MAF question? - LS1TECH

Yes really. It's regarded as a "free" mod because it leans out the tune and gives the "butt dyno" croud a HP improvement because the LS1 cars/trucks run pretty rich from the factory. Anyone with logging/tuning software can lean it out the "right way" and get the same gain, but without the crappy MAF response at other RPM's. On my Trans Am and my Silverado SS, I tried it with them both because people kept saying that it was better... it wasn't. I don't have any of the logs, but I have drawn out for you what the MAF curves looked like on both of them...

Both had idle stumble problems, stalled while coasting, and generally ran like crap until the MAF voltage vs air tables were altered. I ended up giving up on tuning both of them and putting the stock MAF's back in because it would be fine one day, with no MAF error corrections, then crap the next day for no reason. Just got tired of always messing with them.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by bnoon Yes really. It's regarded as a "free" mod because it leans out the tune and gives the "butt dyno" croud a HP improvement because the LS1 cars/trucks run pretty rich from the factory. Anyone with logging/tuning software can lean it out the "right way" and get the same gain, but without the crappy MAF response at other RPM's. On my Trans Am and my Silverado SS, I tried it with them both because people kept saying that it was better... it wasn't. I don't have any of the logs, but I have drawn out for you what the MAF curves looked like on both of them... Both had idle stumble problems, stalled while coasting, and generally ran like crap until the MAF voltage vs air tables were altered. I ended up giving up on tuning both of them and putting the stock MAF's back in because it would be fine one day, with no MAF error corrections, then crap the next day for no reason. Just got tired of always messing with them.

I would say if you want a free mod and your car is running rich, just advance the timing a few degrees manually if possible.

[FantasmoNegro]

Not so easy without a tuning device when your running distributorless set up. Oh and most people do not see any drivbility problems from descreening the MAF. All I am saying is sticking something in the air path is counterintuitive for making power. Has no one done a before and after on the dyno yet? Or has it happened and no one posted up the results.

[Bravnik]

I really don't mean to sound like a Dick here, but I will I guess.

To me this type of fix should be something that is given for free to the community, not charged $20 for something I know damn good and well you paid $20 for a 20ft roll probably. This is a Home Depot fix at best and I'm personally appalled that you charge money for this. Come on guys, are you serious? $20 PLUS Shipping, you have to be joking right. You didn't spend any money actually manufacturing anything here. At least the Plastic Air Straightener they had to actually make a mold and pour plastic! You simply went to Home Depot (or another hardware store) and purchased some screen. I could not sleep at night if it was me.

How about just being cool. Post up the part number of the screen you purchased from Home Depot and let the community enjoy the benefits. Seriously guys, capitalism is a good thing, but sometimes companies go too far.

Now don't get me wrong. If you actually did research, had a screen custom made to your specs etc. I would have no issue with the price. My issue is charging someone $20 for something you got at a local hardware store for maybe $1. This is DIY type of solution to me and not something that should be marketed as if you actually did some R&D.

[FantasmoNegro]

Look at all the shit we gave Cobb for selling parts with out the R&D behind it.

[MTuning]

noone is forced to buy it, it's their choice. but i did make mine out of something i found at home depot.

[Bravnik]

Originally Posted by MTuning noone is forced to buy it, it's their choice. but i did make mine out of something i found at home depot.

Oh I agree. My X's mother was stupid too. She read an article about a solar dryer and how it could save you the money of not buying a dryer and not to mention the money savings from not using the electricity. $20 plus shipping.


When it came in the mail it was about 20ft of string and 2 clothes like clips with instructions to run string between two trees/posts and clip clothes to line using the clips. Oh and it said to not use when raining! I shit you not.

[MTuning]

atleast it came with instructions lol

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by Bravnik I really don't mean to sound like a Dick here, but I will I guess. To me this type of fix should be something that is given for free to the community, not charged $20 for something I know damn good and well you paid $20 for a 20ft roll probably. This is a Home Depot fix at best and I'm personally appalled that you charge money for this. Come on guys, are you serious? $20 PLUS Shipping, you have to be joking right. You didn't spend any money actually manufacturing anything here. At least the Plastic Air Straightener they had to actually make a mold and pour plastic! You simply went to Home Depot (or another hardware store) and purchased some screen. I could not sleep at night if it was me. How about just being cool. Post up the part number of the screen you purchased from Home Depot and let the community enjoy the benefits. Seriously guys, capitalism is a good thing, but sometimes companies go too far. Now don't get me wrong. If you actually did research, had a screen custom made to your specs etc. I would have no issue with the price. My issue is charging someone $20 for something you got at a local hardware store for maybe $1. This is DIY type of solution to me and not something that should be marketed as if you actually did some R&D.

If you read the post here and in PTP's section, you will see that this is actual MAF screen, GM spec MAF screen if I remember right, not from Home Depot.

Now, that's not to say you can't go get something similar from a hardware store, but it will take some work trying different gauge screen wire as well as spacing between the wire, then logging MAF transfer voltage and a/f ratios to get the results achieved here. They've already take the guess work out of it for you.That's where the charge comes into play. Heck, I built my own air/water intercooler for less than $400 and it worked better than an air/air that people charge over $1,000 for, should they give us their hard work for free too???

Now, that being said, I took about 4 pieces of scrap screen from my local hardware store, matched them closely to what screen was in an extra Ford MAF I had laying around, and used that. This was long before John took the time to find his solution. John's just providing the easy way out for those who don't want to invest the time themselves. Nobody is saying it can't be done yourself... but don't think you can run to HD and buy a roll of screen and make it work right off the bat.

[Bravnik]

Originally Posted by bnoon If you read the post here and in PTP's section, you will see that this is actual MAF screen, GM spec MAF screen if I remember right, not from Home Depot. Now, that's not to say you can't go get something similar from a hardware store, but it will take some work trying different gauge screen wire as well as spacing between the wire, then logging MAF transfer voltage and a/f ratios to get the results achieved here. They've already take the guess work out of it for you.That's where the charge comes into play. Heck, I built my own air/water intercooler for less than $400 and it worked better than an air/air that people charge over $1,000 for, should they give us their hard work for free too??? Now, that being said, I took about 4 pieces of scrap screen from my local hardware store, matched them closely to what screen was in an extra Ford MAF I had laying around, and used that. This was long before John took the time to find his solution. John's just providing the easy way out for those who don't want to invest the time themselves. Nobody is saying it can't be done yourself... but don't think you can run to HD and buy a roll of screen and make it work right off the bat.

If it was GM specific screen he would not need to cut it to size friend. I call shenanigans on that as it would be a specific size from GM form fitted to fit a specific application. I would bet he did exactly what you did and went to a local hardware store and picked up some screen. Maybe he used some mesh from a GM application like you did with your Ford, but I doubt very seriously that I can go to GM and buy Screen.

My point is that this is a Home Depot fix. Simply post up the part number and let the community enjoy such a simple fix (if it does indeed fix something). This is not something that is complicated like your Air/Water cooler. It's a small bit of screen.

You see, I see this as a community that is here to help each other out. Not so we can gouge them by selling them a part that may or may not work. Something like this should be given free as there is no proof that it works, no guarantee, no warranty no nothing. Simply a post saying it's the best mod they have ever done and a charge of $20 plus shipping. It's really cool that they found this, however it would have been a hell of a lot cooler if they said "Hey guys, we found this very cheap DIY fix" and posted it up with part numbers. Now that would have been cool.

As for your Air/Water and Ford Screen solution. If I was you I would have done a How To: on each of them and posted it up so the community could benefit from them. However, that's just me.

This is just my opinion. Others may vary of course and people are free to do as they wish and buy what they wish. I simply believe that this is a DIY fix and not something that should be charged for......but that's just me.

[ATE BALLER]

No, if you buy from a gm supplier, they send you a roll.