ZDDP lacking in modern oil

[Lex]

Came across this looking up info for my 944 turbo. It gets complicated fast ... but ZDDP is reduced in the synthetics and modern conventional oils we use unless they are Redline or racing oils. We do have flat tappets (that and the CDFP) and we may see premature wear on bores and rings etc.

Zinc dithiophosphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc_dithiophosphate

The main use of ZDDP is in anti-wear additives to lubricants such as greases, gear oils, and motor oils, which contain about 1%. For applications in oils for gasoline engines, zinc and phosphorus emissions could damage catalytic converters and have had their quantity reduced in standard formulations.[3]. Reduced ZDDP oils have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car camshafts and lifters with flat tappets which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins. Some racing oils such as Valvoline ZR-1, are available in the retail market with the necessary amount of ZDDP. See "external links" in this article. The same ZDDP compounds serve also as corrosion inhibitors and antioxidants.

Discuss!

[kmac]

I use ky in mine so I think I'll be ok.

[karl-hungus]

[rfinkle2]

I'm pretty sure I read this is the chemical reduced in Mobil 1 (US spec) recently.

This is exactly why I pm'd you so you could recommend oil to me Lex.

[karl-hungus]

Buy Rislone Oil Supplement with Zinc/ZDDP Treatment 4401 at Advance Auto Parts

[Haltech]

Pennzoil Ultra...

[karl-hungus]

Pennzoil Ultra Q&A - Bob is the Oil Guy


As you might expect we are not able to disclose our formulation secrets. What we can tell you is that Pennzoil Ultra™ contains a unique anti-wear system that is a variant of (ZDDP or ZDTP) Zinc DiThioPhosphate and is designed to protect the engine from wear in different ways under different operating conditions. However, this is only part of our anti-wear componentry.

[karl-hungus]

so are we supposed to use a zddp additive? mongo confused.

[Bucker]

Penz has it, as pointed out above...

[karl-hungus]

penz ultra has something 'similar' but it's not zddp.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by karl hungus penz ultra has something 'similar' but it's not zddp.

I think the concept is that it functions the same. I am fairly certain the engine was manufactured knowing that people were going to use the available lubricants in their market. Also of note, this engine has been out for a few years now and people have 100k+ mile motors with many different oils in them.

[YZF-R6]

Lol who gives a shit?? How many of you know someone or yourself have experienced an engine failure directly related to the brand of oil you use???? Probably none! As long as you use the right viscosity you are fine, modern oils are legit. Thats why we have ratings and certifications

[karl-hungus]

i hear you, bucker, but i'm worried i have subjected my engine to premature cam/valvetrain failure. i've only used pp and rotella. is my engine okay?

Reduced ZDDP oils have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car camshafts and lifters with flat tappets which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins.

[Ziggo]

I recently saw a white sheet put out about this by forced performance basically saying modified motors shouldn't use oils without this stuff. To prove their point they tore down the motor on their shop Evo, took pics,switched thier oil from a 20w-50 racing oil with zzdp to 10w-30 synthetic (I forgot the brand), did a bunch of dyno pulls, tore it back down and took pictures of significant thrust bearing wear.


Zigatapatalka

[kmac]

Originally Posted by karl hungus i hear you, bucker, but i'm worried i have subjected my engine to premature cam/valvetrain failure. i've only used pp and rotella. is my engine okay? Reduced ZDDP oils have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car camshafts and lifters with flat tappets which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins.

Your avatar is the funniest thing I've ever seen. Haha,love it.

[karl-hungus]

finding the perfect dog shit avatar is distracting me from my zddp anxiety.

[Lex]

The interesting thing is that the new certifications for oil call for very little to no ZDDP because it messes with emissions equipment.

I have looked quite a bit and I haven't found anything else that coats metal parts inside the engine as well as ZDDP in spite of what Pennzoil claim.

High output engines such as ours see lots of piston ring loading, lots of bearing load, and we have a CDFP running fairly high pressures.

Quite a few people here have compression loss. We also know that our motors are hard on the oil and wash it off the cylinder walls.

ZDDP seems like a good idea to have in vehicles such as ours.

[troubled81]

I use acdelco EOS with every oil change in my cars. I stopped buying synthetic for the malibu,civic and sunfire and went with semi-synthetic with the EOS and all three are running WAY smoother then with full synthetic. It actually is shocking how much quieter the motors get with ZPPD in there.

[triplejumper18]

ZDDP, Flat tappet motors, and catalytic converters - Bob Is The Oil Guy

[karl-hungus]

sounds like rotella has a high phosphorous content, but i'm going to pick up some zddp for peace of mind. no cats = no worries. good work, lex.

I say go with the oils that have high zddp. It is easier and cheaper to replace cats than it is to rebuild an engine. Since it is a pre-OBD engine, you won't get a fault code even if the cats are bad, which they could be already.

Since your car is a 1994, it was designed to work with SH oils, which allowed up to 1200ppm of Phosphorous in 30-weights, and had no limit for 40-weights. It would be good if you could stay close to the 1200 number.
Mobil 1 0w40 has 1000ppm of Phosphorous.
M1 TDT 5w40 has 1100ppm.
M1 15w50 has 1200.
Shell Rotella T6 5w40 has 1200.

[rfinkle2]

So, considering ZDDP is beneficial for our cars (without regard to the emission system), would the additive + an oil with good fuel dilution resistance be best?

What are you guys thinking of using / switching to?

Like many people, I'm currently using Pennzoil Platinum.

[karl-hungus]

i'm sticking with rotella and will likely buy this snake oil ---> ZDDPlus Classic Car Engine Oil Additive - Flat-tappet and High-performance engines

i don't want to add the crap advance is selling. 1 qt is too much.

[rodrigo]

wut?

[karl-hungus]

i'm picking some up on ebay ---> zddp | eBay

[Spirry]

Yeesh

[Ziggo]

Link to forced performance white sheet:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Link to forced performance white sheet: http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf

That is where I got that Mobil 1 reference, but couldn't find it again.

Thanks Ziggo.

[karl-hungus]

i bet the '5w40 turbo diesel' with the high zinc and phosphorus content in the white paper is rotella. regardless, i picked up some zddp 2 oz bottles on ebay for my next oil change.

[darth vader]

Fuck dudes, this is alot of mythology from back in the day when people didn't know how to design in the first place or, modify engines.

This stuff mattered in an old school SBC which took 40 pounds of torque to turn over its stock shitty valvetrain design. Chuck a high lift cam in there and bam, wiped lobes.

Modern engines run closer tolerances and better designs. You can't in a million years compare our "flat tappets" being directly actuated by the cams to the crap pushrod setup in an old SBC. There's just nowhere near the drag. My fuckin' bike has "flat tappets" too, I guess, (caps and shims) and it hits its limiter at 13,750 out of 1 litre.

What's "hard on the oil" in this engine is running it past a bearing journal in the turbo at 1300+ degrees. That goes for any turbo car and ZDDP won't help you there. Just change the oil more frequently and get on with life.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by darth vader Fuck dudes, this is alot of mythology from back in the day when people didn't know how to design in the first place or, modify engines. This stuff mattered in an old school SBC which took 40 pounds of torque to turn over its stock shitty valvetrain design. Chuck a high lift cam in there and bam, wiped lobes. Modern engines run closer tolerances and better designs. You can't in a million years compare our "flat tappets" being directly actuated by the cams to the crap pushrod setup in an old SBC. There's just nowhere near the drag. My fuckin' bike has "flat tappets" too, I guess, (caps and shims) and it hits its limiter at 13,750 out of 1 litre. What's "hard on the oil" in this engine is running it past a bearing journal in the turbo at 1300+ degrees. That goes for any turbo car and ZDDP won't help you there. Just change the oil more frequently and get on with life.

If you have a moment, and feel that Forced Performance's recommendations are credible, check out the white paper that Ziggo linked to above.

Specifically, this paragraph (thanks again Ziggo):

There were two things different in this test. The first thing was that we changed to Mobil 1 10
the second thing was the result, thrust bearing damage. The thrust bearing was starting to burn around the
edges. The edges of the steel thrust collar and the tips of the steel thrust ramps had both turned blue from
heat and started to smear the metal. Datalogs of the oil temp and pressure showed that both temp and
pressure were virtually the same as with the Brad Penn oil, but the result
Mobil 1 10W-30 engine oil.

[Bucker]

Amazon.com: Valvoline VV205 VR1 Racing Formula SAE 10w-30 (Turbo Approved) Motor Oil, Pack of Twelve 1 Quart Bottles: Automotive

Amazon.com: Valvoline VV205 VR1 Racing Formula SAE 10w-30 (Turbo Approved) Motor Oil, Pack of Twelve 1 Quart Bottles: Automotive
Amazon.com: Valvoline VV205 VR1 Racing Formula SAE 10w-30 (Turbo Approved) Motor Oil, Pack of Twelve 1 Quart Bottles: Automotive

[Lex]

Another very strong consideration in our motors are valve deposits which are heavily dependent on oil choice as it's circulated through the PCV and over the intake valves.

For VW it was such an issue that they have a spec that oils must comply with to be used in their DI engines. 502.00 was their old spec and I believe it was replaced by 504.00. There are lists of approved oils for their DI application to prevent deposits.

Modern oils are much better. However in the compromise with emissions we know that some things are sacrificed and I wanted a conversation around that. Even though our tappets don't see the loads old motors did, there are other metal surfaces that see high loading.

Something I have yet to find is a writeup showing the wear protection from whatever the manufacturers have replaced ZDDP with. Then it would be settled.

Quote from BTOG forum:

ILSAC's primary goal is to increase fuel economy and catalyst life as much as possible and oils with GF-4/GF-5 sacrifice wear protection somewhat to achieve these goals. Unfortunately with engine oil, it's always a sacrifice between fuel economy / catalyst life and wear protection and the research focuses on optimizing the best balance between wear protection and fuel economy / catalyst life for modern oils.

[YZF-R6]

Ahh i can see it now.... All of our cars are running excellent now but once this ZDDP business catches on its gonna be like the "fuel pump internal craze" that swept the forum and everyone is going to NEED it. Remember how many genpu's blew-up becuz they didnt upgrade their pumps... I love this forum but sometimes it seems like it breeds paranoia lol.

[rfinkle2]

I'm still looking to see if the Valvoline oil above is vw 504.00 approved. Has anyone been able to find that out yet?

[triplejumper18]

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/vo...0400_50700.pdf

Volkswagen Oil Standard 504.00 / 507.00 Approved Oils | my-gti.com

[Bucker]

Anyone with oil usage in the RS?

FYI

[Lex]

Originally Posted by YZF-R6 Ahh i can see it now.... All of our cars are running excellent now but once this ZDDP business catches on its gonna be like the "fuel pump internal craze" that swept the forum and everyone is going to NEED it. Remember how many genpu's blew-up becuz they didnt upgrade their pumps... I love this forum but sometimes it seems like it breeds paranoia lol.

Clearly you didn't even read the OP.

This is not about paranoia. This is about becoming educated. There's a difference.

[karl-hungus]

the good news is zddp is cheaper than internals.

[rfinkle2]

Thanks for the links guys.

I guess my confusion is more related to most of the oils on the forced performance site being "race" oils, whereas VW's recommendations are "street" oils.

The key must be to find a vw504.00 approved oil with high zddp content.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Thanks for the links guys. I guess my confusion is more related to most of the oils on the forced performance site being "race" oils, whereas VW's recommendations are "street" oils. The key must be to find a vw504.00 approved oil with high zddp content.

Red Line Synthetic Oil - Motor Oil - 5W40 Motor Oil