No change in boost from 0% WGDC to 100% WGDC

[phate]

OK, I was attempting to help a local(ish) MSF'er diagnose his non-boosting woes. The car will boost to wastegate spring pressure just fine. The boost control solenoid is stock and wastegate duty cycle modulation has no affect. AFR's are spot on during full throttle and trims are well within reason (+/- 4%), so it's definitely not a leak. This has to be something simple that we're overlooking, but I'm idea'd out, so any suggestions would be great!

@G Sp33dy

[speedms6]

forgot to plug in electronic boost control? loose wire or something?

[G Sp33dy]

Nope its all plugged with new vacuum hoses and a new plastic tee running from compressor to wg to ebc eith no resfrictor pill from bnr. A BNR stg 3 turbo was added and i had no issues pushing 20psilow with my stock turbo setup.

[Dano]

ya know I had the same issue a few months back. took my GS off and put my OE sol back on b/c I wanted to test out BEC values on an OE BC. my stock BC was fairly new when I went to the GS...like 10K miles on it and it was working perfectly. long story short, pluged it back in after sitting in a box for 12 months, and could only get spring pressure. tried everything I could think of and nadda.

I chalked it up to failed BC hardware...swap it out with a known good BC.

[phate]

lol acronyms. Glad I'm on here way too much. Failed BCS was one of my thoughts. No hard parts have been changed out to diagnose the issue, but I'd say BCS is the most likely.

[G Sp33dy]

Sooo perrin from streetunit is a pretty good setup? I was liking that one...sorry im a bewst newb

[Tomas]

obviously the solenoid is not bleeding any/enough air.
If there is no restrictor pill the stock solenoid ports could be too small for the volume of air going to the wastegate so that when it opens at 100% DC not enough air bleeds to release pressure on the wastegate actuator.
Try a restrictor.
Take the one from the stock turbo and insert into the hose after compressor BEFORE tee branching of to solenoid. Make sure you start with small WGDCs to ensure you dont overboost.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate lol acronyms. Glad I'm on here way too much. Failed BCS was one of my thoughts. No hard parts have been changed out to diagnose the issue, but I'd say BCS is the most likely.

hahaha

I just re read my post and LOLed at all the cap letters....

so I pulled my grimmspeed EBC off and put on my old "new" OEM boost controller which was fubared....at least I guess it was. need to throw some voltage at it and see if I can blow through it. 9v battery should do something if you want to test yours but you may want to ask Dustin...I know hes tested them before.

Originally Posted by Tomas obviously the solenoid is not bleeding any/enough air. If there is no restrictor pill the stock solenoid ports could be too small for the volume of air going to the wastegate so that when it opens at 100% DC not enough air bleeds to release pressure on the wastegate actuator. Try a restrictor. Take the one from the stock turbo and insert into the hose after compressor BEFORE tee branching of to solenoid. Make sure you start with small WGDCs to ensure you dont overboost.

AFAIK cant remove the OE restrictor... get a .025 welding tip from Lowes and use that...or an .032..will fit right into a 6mm vac line.

I didn't put a restrictor in when I tested...hum...I bet that was my issue as well...don't need one running a 3 port so I forgot all about it LOL.

[phate]

Visuals and a data log of what is happening are attached

I shouldn't have to point this out, but revision A has no WGDC, while revision B is allowed to modulate freely (via BEC!!!!).

[Tomas]

Keep this in mind.

The solenoid is made to work with the OE restrictor.
If you increase the restrictor hole you will need more DC to run the same amount of boost. If you increase it too much 100% DC wont do anything.

Example:

If your boost pressure source and wastegate actuator ports and hose are 5mm ID but the ports inside the solenoid are only 3mm ID, you will most likely not be bleeding enough air to release any pressure on the line running between boost pressure source and wastegate actuator.

It is highly unlikely the OE solenoid is kaputt.

BTW you can pull the complete tube with restrictor out of the k04 comp housing. Its just press fitted in there.

[G Sp33dy]

OK buuuut I originally had the restrictor pill given to me by Bryan at BNR, had it in the tube, and with several tunes, I was getting these exact same results. The graph above is with no pill, as I lost it as I was replacing the vacuum lines from the turbo to the EBC. With no pill nothing has changed. As far as taking the pill off the stock turbo, yep, you guessed it. Its already in GA and I'm waiting for my deposit back.

Does the diameter of the vacuum line matter? I am now using .25" rubber line. The stock lines cracked and were too short. If need be I can buy some 6mm lines no problem, but I doubt it would be that big of a difference. Thanks again for any input.

[breakfstincluded]

Sounds like my current issue.

I had just done HPFP, motorcraft, ITV22 and sure tip SRI/TIP

I wasn't getting passed 12psi, and my WGDC was getting to 99.XX. This is during 4th gear runs in less than 40 degree temps.

My fuel trims were also negative and just within -8.

I had it smoke tested at cobb after trying to find what I thought was a leak on my own to no avail, and they told me it was leak free and either my turbo was dying or it was a WGA/BCS thing.

Perhaps there was some kind of leak I found though, because after flashing to the v210 AP maps my LTFT is now about 1.6, though I had not changed anything besides that flash that would fix a leak.

Nator has reccomended I try switching BCS with someone else to see if that really is the issue, instead of spending 100 on a Grimm or something.

Also I'm still on warranty, so maybe I can just tell them it's fucked and do something about it and I'll get something free.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by G Sp33dy Does the diameter of the vacuum line matter? I am now using .25" rubber line. The stock lines cracked and were too short. If need be I can buy some 6mm lines no problem, but I doubt it would be that big of a difference. Thanks again for any input.

0.25" is Ok. Thats about 6mm anyway.
You need a restrictor with a hole smaller than 1mm. IIRC about 0.04".

[Dano]

at face value I would think there would be at least some variation in boost pressure if the issue was a restrictor but if you take my case into consideration that might be two cases where no restrictor = no change in boost and the lil OE BCS is just overwhelmed with volume.

buuuuuuut you said you did originally have the BNR restrictor in place so IDK for sure.

the restrictor does need to be first in line from the boost source, so right off the compressor housing or hotpipe or intake whichever you are using as a boost source.

With my GT28 and OE BC I used a .035 welding tip from lowes. cut it in half and made sure the hold didn't get any debris in it nor close it up. It worked perfectly on a 12PSI spring.

[silvapain]

I can't believe you fags are making me quote the COBB ATR Help File....

A smaller diameter hole in the center of the brass restrictor pill will have a higher tendency to create boost spike in the system and require less wastegate duty cycle to run higher boost. The larger the diameter hole in the center of the restrictor pill, the less chance the boost control system will boost spike and the greater wastegate duty cycle you will need to run in order to produce higher boost. If you have a stock turbo and are running an AccessPORT map, you have no reason to modify your restrictor pill. If you have installed a new turbocharger and you are using the stock boost control system to tune boost, please verify that the vacuum line coming off the compressor housing contains a restrictor pill with a hole machined in the center of the pill. The stock boost control system most commonly uses a restrictor pill with a center hole size of 0.0415” +/- 0.003” For larger-than-stock turbochargers or turbochargers with a stronger mechanical spring in the wastegate actuator you will need to use a restrictor with a larger center hole, something along the size of 0.042”-0.060” +/- 0.001” For similar-to-stock-sized turbochargers with a weaker mechanical spring in the wastegate actuator you will need to use a restrictor with a smaller center hole, something along 0.028”-0.040” +/- 0.001”. Be very careful when using a restrictor with a center hole of this size, there is a higher tendency for the system to boost spike and you will need less wastegate duty cycle to run higher boost.

[Dano]

who's the faggot now?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Dano who's the faggot now?

me...

[G Sp33dy]

OOOOOK so since I've tried the restrictor pill with no luck, the only plausible thing to do now is buy a new EBCS, right?

[Dano]

do you not have a local that can lend you theirs?...for like 20 minutes lol..to confirm yours is toast.

I'd send you mine but IDK if its any good haha

[G Sp33dy]

No I dont man :/ the thing that's got me is that I was very careful with the lil fucker when I swapped the turbo, and it worked amazing with my stock setup, now all of a sudden with a new turbo, pill or no pill, its shot? Just strange is all. I don't mind buying one its no big deal, if anything I'll sell it on here if it doesnt work out, but from what everyone is collectively saying, is that I probably should get the damned ebcs so i can finally feel zah powah of zah BNR tuhrboh jaaaah!

[speedms6]

you should just get a grimmspeed if you're going to get a new one

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by speedms6 you should just get a grimmspeed if you're going to get a new one

Agreed. The Grimmspeed EBCS is only $100 and if it doesn't work you can easily sell it on here.


Tapadatass

[Tomas]

fuck Grimspeed and Perrin.
a solenoid is just a fucking solenoid.
This is what I got. Its the manufacturer of the AEM solenoid.

Boost Control Solenoid | eBay

I am telling you son. Your solenoind is OK. You needz moar restrictor.
A smaller orifice.
A tighter vag.
Many ways of putting it.

[silvapain]

The stock solenoid is a two port. The GS EBCS is a three port. Three port solenoids work better at controlling boost IMHO.


Tapadatass

[rfinkle2]

One good thing about the Grimmspeed is that it can be run in 2 or 3 port mode, so it is versatile ($40.00 more than a factory bcs).

I love me some help file!

Did @phate get this worked out?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 One good thing about the Grimmspeed is that it can be run in 2 or 3 port mode, so it is versatile ($40.00 more than a factory bcs). I love me some help file! Did @phate get this worked out?

I have to admit you do come in handy sometimes Finkle.


Tapadatass

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tomas fuck Grimspeed and Perrin. a solenoid is just a fucking solenoid. This is what I got. Its the manufacturer of the AEM solenoid. Boost Control Solenoid | eBay I am telling you son. Your solenoind is OK. You needz moar restrictor. A smaller orifice. A tighter vag. Many ways of putting it.

I tend to agree that trying a smaller vag is a good idea. Esp since the OE BC was working fine when removed from the car.

with that said, any 3 port BC is better than OE...it will just require come boost comp and WGDC table tweaking to dial in.

I guess for me if money is no object [100 bones] getting a 3 port will def compliment the BNR turbo very nicely.

Originally Posted by silvapain I have to admit you do come in handy sometimes Finkle. Tapadatass

don't tell him that!!!

lol

[silvapain]

@G Sp33dy what's your 20? If you're close to Kankakee, why don't you come down to my place this weekend and we can put my OE BCS on your car and see if that makes any difference.


Tapadatass

[G Sp33dy]

^^appreciate the offer man but I am booked solid this weekend. I will most likely be waiting a week or so after the holiday bills and order either the perrin or grimspeed bcs, I really dont see what the difference is, but the favorite seems to be grimspeed on this thread, whatever. @phate has been helping me out a shit ton and he realy can't do much more until I change/swap something mechanical.

[G Sp33dy]

grimmspeed it is. saw it on edgeautosport.com will be purchasing soon enough. On a side note, I had 6 people total in the car saturday night, and made alot of people say oh shit on the free way in 3rd gear, even with my pidly 12psi of boost. my buddy oblivious to cars had to double check with me that "this is a four banger?!" love the ms3

[TWOptSL0W]

Fwiw I ran the stock solenoid with my 3076 for a bit and it worked with no restrictor. It bled slowly, but worked. Make sure you check all boost tables in atr, don't rule that out completely